Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[drs]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The difference is that I don't claim to be an expert on what represents a restraint of trade, which is why I'll wait until somebody who actually knows what they are talking about weighs in on the matter. You have been comically wrong on here in the past but don't appear to have learned any humility.

I don't think there is a poster in the history of this site who has been as continually wrong, arrogant and bullying as you.

So you know, pot meet kettle.

[Che Dail]

On 08/04/2022 at 14:15, Marten said:

Spain has had B-teams for a very long time, yet they were basically the biggest underachievers in international football until they won Euro 2008. It wasn't B-teams that changed it for them...

Of the team that beat Germany in the 2008 final, only 3 out of 14 Spanish players didn't play in their club B teams. 

Casillas, Ramos, Machera, Puyol, Capdevilla, Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Alonso, Carzola, Guila gained B or C team experience, 473 competitive matches between them.

That experience played a part in every players' development, and that is undeniable.

[invergowrie arab]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Of the team that beat Germany in the 2008 final, only 3 out of 14 Spanish players didn't play in their club B teams. 

Casillas, Ramos, Machera, Puyol, Capdevilla, Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Alonso, Carzola, Guila gained B or C team experience, 473 competitive matches between them.

That experience played a part in every players' development, and that is undeniable.

It's a statement of fact certainly. 

Whether it actually improved them or not isn't uncontestable. You seem to be ascribing causation to correlation.

You are also missing the point that even if B Teams are a panacea to all our national team ills that; 

1. That's not the job of the LL or anybody else

2. That two teams shouldn't be able to buy in half way up the pyramid.

[oneteaminglasgow]

22 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Of the team that beat Germany in the 2008 final, only 3 out of 14 Spanish players didn't play in their club B teams. 

Casillas, Ramos, Machera, Puyol, Capdevilla, Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Alonso, Carzola, Guila gained B or C team experience, 473 competitive matches between them.

That experience played a part in every players' development, and that is undeniable.

I simply refuse to believe that you’ve missed such an incredibly simple point so spectacularly. 

[Ranaldo Bairn]

1 minute ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I simply refuse to believe that you’ve missed such an incredibly simple point so spectacularly. 

Sssh! Don't spoil it! 

[Che Dail]

On 08/04/2022 at 14:53, craigkillie said:

They "recognised something was wrong" at the point where they had just reached the World Cup final, and "made moves to fix it" which led to them failing miserably for three tournaments running.

You'd need to ask the KNVB who drafted the "Winners of Tomorrow" plan for reviving Dutch football, where the focus shifted to youth.

Or Ruud Gullit who, after they failed to qualify in 2016, said, "It is a crisis because you could see all the signs and that it was coming.  We have been asleep really.  Everybody used to look at us as an example and we were really proud of that.  But the other countries have improved..."

Others have said they were doomed by an obsession with the past: nostalgia, arrogance and insularity.  Which all sounds quite familiar!

Jong Ajax went straight in at Tier 2, season 2013/14 (I think?).

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Che Dail

[Ranaldo Bairn]

If only @Martencould explain the situation in the Netherlands to the hard of thinking for the 28124838867th time. 

[Burnieman]

Where has this "Hearts legal action" come from, have they even applied? it's nonsense.

[Burnieman]

6 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Therefore, despite the usual attempts to obfuscate and introduce irrelevant aspects into the conversation, there is literally no merit in LongTimeLurker's post.

There never is.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Where has this "Hearts legal action" come from, have they even applied? it's nonsense.

Somewhere someone got caught up in hypotheticals on hypotheticals. 

[Burnieman]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Somewhere someone got caught up in hypotheticals on hypotheticals. 

Thought so, and somehow we went from B teams to B etter Together.  Quite incredible.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Burnieman

[LongTimeLurker]

9 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

If only @Martencould explain the situation in the Netherlands to the hard of thinking for the 28124838867th time. 

...because one guy from Rotterdam who for all we know has never even played the game at pub team level automatically knows all the answers and is the definitive authority on this subject. The real reason parachuting the OF colts into the LL was so bizarre is precisely because it doesn't do what the Dutch did by having them in against fully professional clubs. There's a big difference between playing against Vale of Leithen and playing against NAC Breda in developing players that you expect to one day play in the Champions League, but there again Ajax actually have a long and stellar track record of bringing young Dutch players through from their youth system while the Old Firm have tended to simply sign the players they needed from elsewhere. In short OF in the LL is more of a PR exercise rather than something genuinely serious.

[Burnieman]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

...because one guy from Rotterdam who for all we know has never even played the game at pub team level automatically knows all the answers and is the definitive authority on this subject. The real reason parachuting the OF colts into the LL was so bizarre is precisely because it doesn't do what the Dutch did by having them in against fully professional clubs. There's a big difference between playing against Vale of Leithen and playing against NAC Breda in developing players that you expect to one day play in the Champions League, but there again Ajax actually have a long and stellar track record of bringing young Dutch players through from their youth system while the Old Firm have tended to simply sign the players they needed from elsewhere. In short OF in the LL is more of a PR exercise rather than something genuinely serious.

I think most people on here are fairly comfortable with the fact he knows a damn sight more about Dutch football than you.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

He might only have played in his back garden, but I'll take his eyewitness and well researched accounts far more seriously than some Scottish Guy (I presume) taking stats completely out of context from random leagues all around Europe to suit his agenda.

I actually largely agree with you in your later, more serious points. But as a PR exercise it's been a complete disaster to anyone who spends more than 5 seconds looking at it and thinking about it properly. Which is pleasing as I think the tide will turn soon.

[Che Dail]

23 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

He might only have played in his back garden, but I'll take his eyewitness and well researched accounts far more seriously than some Scottish Guy (I presume) taking stats completely out of context from random leagues all around Europe to suit his agenda.

For well researched accounts, what to do is order a copy of 'Soccernomics' by Kuper and Syzmanski and go straight to Chapter 18: "Made in Amsterdam: The rise of Spain and the Triumph of European Knowledge Networks"

Spain became better than Holland at Dutch (total) football.  Indeed, in the 2010 final, the Dutch were accused of 'anti-football', by Cruyff.

Yes, they had success in 2014 (3rd place) - but this was the end of a golden generation - and changes were necessary.  A lot of the top Spanish players play in B teams - this is quite normal.

I'm Scottish, and I've been to the Netherlands. 

There are a lot of things we're doing very well in Scotland, some of which have roots in the SFA's "2020 Vision" report in 2011 and the follow-up in 2015.  I just think we should continue to embrace new ideas and try things which might continue to improve the game here.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Che Dail

[Gordon EF]

30 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Spain became better than Holland at Dutch (total) football.  Indeed, in the 2010 final, the Dutch were accused of 'anti-football', by Cruyff..

And then four years later, the Dutch annihilated Spain 5-1, papping them out of the World Cup in the 1st round.... despite the Spanish team being full of guys who'd played in B teams.

[superbigal]

Anyone got any thoughts on tonights game.

Zombies B are a rather large 17/10 with McBookie.  

[invergowrie arab]

That's Law and Dutch things that nobody on here is qualified to talk about.

Anything else?

[craigkillie]

52 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

For well researched accounts, what to do is order a copy of 'Soccernomics' by Kuper and Syzmanski and go straight to Chapter 18: "Made in Amsterdam: The rise of Spain and the Triumph of European Knowledge Networks"

Spain became better than Holland at Dutch (total) football.  Indeed, in the 2010 final, the Dutch were accused of 'anti-football', by Cruyff.

Yes, they had success in 2014 (3rd place) - but this was the end of a golden generation - and changes were necessary.  A lot of the top Spanish players play in B teams - this is quite normal.

I'm Scottish, and I've been to the Netherlands. 

There are a lot of things we're doing very well in Scotland, some of which have roots in the SFA's "2020 Vision" report in 2011 and the follow-up in 2015.  I just think we should continue to embrace new ideas and try things which might continue to improve the game here.

 

Curiously, the Dutch didn't have B teams when they played the original "Total Football" featuring Cruyff. Meanwhile, Spain had them since the 1940s at least, and were consistent underachievers on the global stage. So why would B teams suddenly be responsible for success around 60 years after they were introduced?

[Boaby Fisher]

I'm absolutely convinced that England's improved performances at the major tournaments are due to Colts teams playing in the Leyland DAF Cup or whatever it's called now.