Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[FairWeatherFan]

Wonder what happened to comparing Scotland with countries with a similar population or financial resources. You know like Croatia

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Croatia: 6 players, 81 B-Team apps

81/6 = 13.5 games

But yeah, let's keep comparing Scotland to the Netherlands. It's worked wonders since the 70s.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

I really have no idea if you're a shit troll or just slow on the uptake. But just how much different do you think those 12 B team appearances made to Killian Mbappe? Do you think he'd be a significantly worse player without them? And if so, by how much?

And how would you like me to quantify a response to this?  Using Match Attax card scoring system?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Che Dail

[oneteaminglasgow]

I think this point gets made every time this comes up, but even if B teams are objectively better for young talents coming through and therefore are to the benefit of the national team, who cares? That’s not the point of lower league football, and changes which fundamentally devalue lower league football shouldn’t be made in pursuit of that goal. It’s perfectly clear that having to play against youth teams for whom competitiveness isn’t the main objective and who’ve bribed their way into the league devalues the competition - even more so when it’s clearly at the expense of allowing actual real clubs with fans the chance of progression.

Edited April 8, 2022 by oneteaminglasgow

[Burnieman]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The loan system would still work in addition to B-Teams, that won't necessarily stop. 

And there's no reason why not to have a reserve league - but it doesn't provide the quality or intensity (or regularity due to frequently postponed fixtures) that playing competitive matches week-in week-out against men that is needed for the step up to 1st team football.

 

If you speak to former players, they'll tell you that the reserve league of old was exactly the type of environment that helped develop them, men against boys so to speak, competitive matches week in and week out.  A mix of fringe players, first team players coming back from injury, and young players taking the next rung of the ladder.  Every club had one.  Premier Reserve League, Reserve League West, Reserve League East etc.

Not every club can run a B team in the Pyramid, and a reserve league does not block proper clubs from moving up and down the Pyramid (imagine being edged out of promotion by Livingston B). 

However, what a proper reserve league provides is little different to a B team playing Gretna, in fact it's probably better.

There is absolutely no need for them (only two exist) if we have a proper reserve and loan system.  Make the step up to reserve football and then if needed, a loan out to another club.

[Burnieman]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Yeah, when you predicted the cataclysmic downfall of non league-football, which has failed to materialise.

Just because you're angry about B-Teams and don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad. 

When there's such hostility to an idea in certain quarters, folk just won't engage for fear of getting shouted down by the mob.

I's basically a group of like-minded furious people agreeing with each other for 12 months solid - there's no debate or progress - what's the point in that?

[Burnieman]

16 minutes ago, edinabear said:

I am friends with a few Dutch youth coaches

Are you aye

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

If you speak to former players, they'll tell you that the reserve league of old was exactly the type of environment that helped develop them, men against boys so to speak, competitive matches week in and week out.  A mix of fringe players, first team players coming back from injury, and young players taking the next rung of the ladder.  Every club had one.  Premier Reserve League, Reserve League West, Reserve League East etc.

Not every club can run a B team in the Pyramid, and a reserve league does not block proper clubs from moving up and down the Pyramid (imagine being edged out of promotion by Livingston B). 

However, what a proper reserve league provides is little different to a B team playing Gretna, in fact it's probably better.

There is absolutely no need for them (only two exist) if we have a proper reserve and loan system.  Make the step up to reserve football and then if needed, a loan out to another club.

As you know there are plenty former players at the top level of the game who advocate B-Teams... Sure plenty current players will too, since it formed part of their development.

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

And how would you like me to quantify a response to this?  Using Match Attax card scoring system?

Well my point is obviously that you can't do it.

[oneteaminglasgow]

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I really have no idea if you're a shit troll or just slow on the uptake. But just how much different do you think those 12 B team appearances made to Killian Mbappe? Do you think he'd be a significantly worse player without them? And if so, by how much?

Should also make the point that Mbappe made B team appearances in two seasons - 10 in 2015/16 and 2 in 2016/17. In both of those seasons, he made more appearances for Monaco‘s first team. 

[Gordon EF]

1 minute ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Should also make the point that Mbappe made B team appearances in two seasons - 10 in 2015/16 and 2 in 2016/17. In both of those seasons, he made more appearances for Monaco‘s first team. 

Here's a crazy idea, play young players in first teams.

[Che Dail]

Just now, Gordon EF said:

Well my point is obviously that you can't do it.

Well if you ask a silly question you get a silly answer:

He's currently a 'goldie' foil Match Attax card, but if hadn't played in a B Team, he might just be a plain card, like Harry Kane.  

That ok for you?

[Gordon EF]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Well if you ask a silly question you get a silly answer:

He's currently a 'goldie' foil Match Attax card, but if hadn't played in a B Team, he might just be a plain card, like Harry Kane.  

That ok for you?

But it's only a silly question because you're making a silly point. None of the data you're providing is anywhere near suggesting that B teams make players better than they would be without B teams. Not that it's not proving it, it's not even getting anywhere close to supporting it.

Your trawling of player data websites is proving absolutely nothing. Some very good players played for B teams, some very good players didn't. What on Earth are you actually trying to prove?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Gordon EF

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

But it's only a silly question because you're making a silly point. None of the data you're providing is anywhere near suggesting that B teams make players better than they would be without B teams. Not that it's not proving it, it's not even getting anywhere close to supporting it.

Your trawling of player data websites is proving absolutely nothing. Some very good players played for B teams, some very good players didn't. What on Earth are you actually trying to prove?

That there's nothing wrong with a 'blended' approach to player development.

B-Teams have their place, alongside other methods.

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

As you know there are plenty former players at the top level of the game who advocate B-Teams... Sure plenty current players will too, since it formed part of their development.

They may advocate it (how many former Scottish players have plaved B team football v Reserve football?), but as has been put forward on here by posters better aligned with what happens on the Continent than me, the actual benefits of B teams versus a proper Reserve League/Loan system are very debatable and certainly not clear.  Is there an absolutely unequivocal benefit to B teams over other solutions?  That's anything but proven, and quoting stats from Europe doesn't prove it either.

Personally I'm not 100% against B teams, but I'd rather not see a screed of B teams block teams progress in the EoS or WoS or LL, because that is what would need to happen if B teams were accepted into the Pyramid system, if in actual fact the benefit is marginal to non-existent.

[FairWeatherFan]

I don't think there's even a uniform approach to 2nd XIs in the pyramid in other countries. Age restrictions, squad restrictions, caps on promotion all differ. So i'm never entirely sure what people are advocating for?

If you're talking about the Netherlands these days we'd need an u21 League and a promotion/relegation playoff between that league's champion and the worse performing B team.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

They may advocate it (how many former Scottish players have plaved B team football v Reserve football?), but as has been put forward on here by posters better aligned with what happens on the Continent than me, the actual benefits of B teams versus a proper Reserve League/Loan system are very debatable and certainly not clear.  Is there an absolutely unequivocal benefit to B teams over other solutions?  That's anything but proven, and quoting stats from Europe doesn't prove it either.

Personally I'm not 100% against B teams, but I'd rather not see a screed of B teams block teams progress in the EoS or WoS or LL, because that is what would need to happen if B teams were accepted into the Pyramid system, if in actual fact the benefit is marginal to non-existent.

I agree with this... 

Although starting at the bottom in effect would block progress - because they'd likely sail through the leagues preventing other teams from getting promoted, whilst that time spent to get up the pyramid wouldn't achieve the competitive levels required - nobody wins.

If anything, I'd be interested to look at it the opposite way round: What happens if the league expands and opens up the 3rd tier, and drop the B teams there immediately. 

 

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

That there's nothing wrong with a 'blended' approach to player development.

B-Teams have their place, alongside other methods.

Nobody is making the argument that they're detrimental to player development. We're just saying that we don't want them in the leagues and that primary argument for them - that they improve player development in a way that cannot be achieved by other methods - is bullshit and utterly unproven.

[Gordon EF]

I'd be really interested to see the response if, say, Man City and Chelsea wanted to put their B teams in the Premier League.

[Marten]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think there's even a uniform approach to 2nd XIs in the pyramid in other countries. Age restrictions, squad restrictions, caps on promotion all differ. So i'm never entirely sure what people are advocating for?

If you're talking about the Netherlands these days we'd need an u21 League and a promotion/relegation playoff between that league's champion and the worse performing B team.

One of my objections is the way how it happened here in Scotland, with 2 just shoehorned into an existing competition, bypassing others while not opening that league up. It's pretty obvious I'm against B-teams, but if you'd do it, it would make the most sense to change League 2 to 2 regional divisions & 3 divisions below that (like LL East, LL West & HL). From those 3 divisions B-teams can then get relegated to an U21 league, while the existing 6 leagues at tier 6 have their own set number of promotion spots. Also, by expanding tiers 4 & 5, you create the opportunity for a decent amount of normal clubs to move up too.

However, it should be a part of a larger scale reform of youth coaching/structures and not just be introduced on it's own. 

[craigkillie]

47 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Like  Germany (after Michael Owen thashed them), the Netherlands recognised something was wrong and have made moves to fix it. Change is generational and not instant.

For many years they didn't have to change a thing due to their historic successes.

Still, the Netherlands are ranked 10th in the world - which is moderately successful in the great scheme of things. 

And the success of Spanish football in recent decades has roots in Holland / Cruyff.

They "recognised something was wrong" at the point where they had just reached the World Cup final, and "made moves to fix it" which led to them failing miserably for three tournaments running.