Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Gordon EF]

40 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You've got to nominate two(?) directors to make sure there's somebody to schmooze with. Bagsy not it.

That'll obviously be Div and Francesc Fabregas.

[Che Dail]

5 hours ago, Marten said:

Portugal has had B-teams for decades, there is no reason to assume these players wouldn't have broken through if they were in a reserve league or out on loan instead.

You should compare a country that introduced B-teams in the not too distant past. Like The Netherlands, where the national team has been pish from 2014 (compared to where they were before). None of the big Dutch stars in history came through B-teams.
 

The current Netherlands squad features 15 players with B team experience (in the not too distant past):

Flekken, Drommel, de Light (he's good!), Teze, Timber, Wijndal, Til, Klaasen, Koopmeiners, de Jong, Bergwijn (a star?), Danjuma, Lang, Malen, Gakpo.

400 appearances between them in B-Teams

 

The current Spain squad has 18 players with 750 B team appearances between them (not including David Silva, retired - 14 times for Valencia B - he's brilliant!).  

Portugal:  18 players, 611 B-Team appearances

Germany: 17 players, 341 B-Team apps

Croatia: 6 players, 81 B-Team apps

Ukraine: 12 players, 298 apps

Czech Republic: (quite recent, B teams parachuted in at Tier3) 3 players, 107 apps

 

I've not done France yet, but it's a lot too 

Luddites! 

[craigkillie]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

The current Netherlands squad features 15 players with B team experience (in the not too distant past):

Flekken, Drommel, de Light (he's good!), Teze, Timber, Wijndal, Til, Klaasen, Koopmeiners, de Jong, Bergwijn (a star?), Danjuma, Lang, Malen, Gakpo.

400 appearances between them in B-Teams

And since they introduced them they've failed to reach a Euros and a World Cup, then stumbled out of the last Euros at the last 16 stage. What a success story.

Edited April 8, 2022 by craigkillie

[Burnieman]

24 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Luddites! 

To be fair, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this if you think two B teams in the Lowland League are suddenly going to improve the production line of top quality players for Scotland.

The loan system is a much more accessible way of helping younger players along, and players can be placed with clubs at differing levels within the game and different styles of play, different dressing room environment etc.  eg.  Marley Redfern, 18, loaned out to Blackburn Utd last season, 11 appearances in a very truncated season.  This season 23 appearances for Hamilton Accies.

An U23/Reserve League is what is required, not B teams in the Pyramid (which only a few clubs could afford to run anyway).

 

[Burnieman]

41 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Germany: 17 players, 341 B-Team apps

Also, 14 players, 419 loan appreances

[Marten]

26 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The current Netherlands squad features 15 players with B team experience (in the not too distant past):

Flekken, Drommel, de Light (he's good!), Teze, Timber, Wijndal, Til, Klaasen, Koopmeiners, de Jong, Bergwijn (a star?), Danjuma, Lang, Malen, Gakpo.

400 appearances between them in B-Teams

 

The current Spain squad has 18 players with 750 B team appearances between them (not including David Silva, retired - 14 times for Valencia B - he's brilliant!).  

Portugal:  18 players, 611 B-Team appearances

Germany: 17 players, 341 B-Team apps

Croatia: 6 players, 81 B-Team apps

Ukraine: 12 players, 298 apps

Czech Republic: (quite recent, B teams parachuted in at Tier3) 3 players, 107 apps

 

I've not done France yet, but it's a lot too 

Luddites! 

I can also look up stats to suit me. Let's look at the Dutch team that played the World Cup final in 2010 and where they developed as youngsters (starting XI & subs):

• Maarten Stekelenburg - reserve league & in Ajax' first team at the age of 19
• Gregory van der Wiel - 2nd tier with Haarlem, then to Ajax' first team at 19
• John Heitinga - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Joris Mathijsen - Willem II U18, straight to Willem II's first team at the age of 18, moved on to AZ at 20
• Giovanni van Bronckhorst - reserve league & in Feyenoord's first team at the age of 18
• Mark van Bommel - started at non-league club RKVV Maasbracht, then moved to Fortuna Sittard and at PSV when he was 22
• Nigel de Jong - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Arjen Robben - started at non-league club vv Bedum, then moved to FC Groningen and at PSV when he was 18
• Wesley Sneijder - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 18
• Dirk Kuyt - started at non-league club Quick Boys, then FC Utrecht and at Feyenoord when he was 23
• Robin van Persie - Excelsior youth, then Feyenoord U18, straight to first team at the age of 17
• Eljero Elia - ADO Den Haag U18, then ADO Den Haag 1st team and FC Twente 1st team at the age of 20
• Rafael van der Vaart - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Edson Braafheid - started at non-league club Abcoude, then straight to FC Utrecht 1st team at 20 & FC Twente at the age of 24

Most of the players who came through youth ranks at pro clubs also started at a non-league club and were picked up as youth players. If this shows anything, it's that there are plenty of opportunities in The Netherlands to start at small clubs and move up, which is thanks to a large network of regional youth coaching/facilities/structures. Also, players who were good enough at a young age often skipped reserve leagues and went straight into the first team, what still often happens today.

[Che Dail]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

I can also look up stats to suit me. Let's look at the Dutch team that played the World Cup final in 2010 and where they developed as youngsters (starting XI & subs):

• Maarten Stekelenburg - reserve league & in Ajax' first team at the age of 19
• Gregory van der Wiel - 2nd tier with Haarlem, then to Ajax' first team at 19
• John Heitinga - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Joris Mathijsen - Willem II U18, straight to Willem II's first team at the age of 18, moved on to AZ at 20
• Giovanni van Bronckhorst - reserve league & in Feyenoord's first team at the age of 18
• Mark van Bommel - started at non-league club RKVV Maasbracht, then moved to Fortuna Sittard and at PSV when he was 22
• Nigel de Jong - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Arjen Robben - started at non-league club vv Bedum, then moved to FC Groningen and at PSV when he was 18
• Wesley Sneijder - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 18
• Dirk Kuyt - started at non-league club Quick Boys, then FC Utrecht and at Feyenoord when he was 23
• Robin van Persie - Excelsior youth, then Feyenoord U18, straight to first team at the age of 17
• Eljero Elia - ADO Den Haag U18, then ADO Den Haag 1st team and FC Twente 1st team at the age of 20
• Rafael van der Vaart - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
• Edson Braafheid - started at non-league club Abcoude, then straight to FC Utrecht 1st team at 20 & FC Twente at the age of 24

Most of the players who came through youth ranks at pro clubs also started at a non-league club and were picked up as youth players. If this shows anything, it's that there are plenty of opportunities in The Netherlands to start at small clubs and move up, which is thanks to a large network of regional youth coaching/facilities/structures. Also, players who were good enough at a young age often skipped reserve leagues and went straight into the first team, what still often happens today.

FRANCE - 3rd best in the world

17 out of 23 players in their squad played in B teams, incuding Mbappe (Monaco - 12 apps).  

391 appearances overall.  Average age (current) = 26

What's the problem? 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Che Dail

[Che Dail]

23 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

To be fair, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this if you think two B teams in the Lowland League are suddenly going to improve the production line of top quality players for Scotland.

The loan system is a much more accessible way of helping younger players along, and players can be placed with clubs at differing levels within the game and different styles of play, different dressing room environment etc.  eg.  Marley Redfern, 18, loaned out to Blackburn Utd last season, 11 appearances in a very truncated season.  This season 23 appearances for Hamilton Accies.

An U23/Reserve League is what is required, not B teams in the Pyramid (which only a few clubs could afford to run anyway).

The loan system would still work in addition to B-Teams, that won't necessarily stop. 

And there's no reason why not to have a reserve league - but it doesn't provide the quality or intensity (or regularity due to frequently postponed fixtures) that playing competitive matches week-in week-out against men that is needed for the step up to 1st team football.

 

[Marten]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

FRANCE - 3rd best in the world

17 out of 23 players in their squad played in B teams, incuding Mbappe (Monaco - 12 apps).  

391 appearances overall.  Average age (current) = 26

What's the problem? 

 

 

 

You continue ignoring any arguments made by others, just like  you did when we originally discussed this last year...

[Che Dail]

59 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

And since they introduced them they've failed to reach a Euros and a World Cup, then stumbled out of the last Euros at the last 16 stage. What a success story.

Like  Germany (after Michael Owen thashed them), the Netherlands recognised something was wrong and have made moves to fix it. Change is generational and not instant.

For many years they didn't have to change a thing due to their historic successes.

Still, the Netherlands are ranked 10th in the world - which is moderately successful in the great scheme of things. 

And the success of Spanish football in recent decades has roots in Holland / Cruyff.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

You continue ignoring any arguments made by others, just like  you did when we originally discussed this last year...

Yeah, when you predicted the cataclysmic downfall of non league-football, which has failed to materialise.

Just because you're angry about B-Teams and don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad. 

When there's such hostility to an idea in certain quarters, folk just won't engage for fear of getting shouted down by the mob.

I's basically a group of like-minded furious people agreeing with each other for 12 months solid - there's no debate or progress - what's the point in that?

[Marten]

Just now, Che Dail said:

Yeah, when you predicted the cataclysmic downfall of non league-football, which has failed to materialise.

Just because you're angry about B-Teams and don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad. 

When there's such hostility to an idea in certain quarters, folk just won't engage for fear of getting shouted down by the mob.

I's basically a group of like-minded furious people agreeing with each other for 12 months solid - there's no debate or progress - what's the point in that?

[edinabear]

8 minutes ago, Marten said:

You continue ignoring any arguments made by others, just like  you did when we originally discussed this last year...

I am friends with a few Dutch youth coaches and they are very strong supporters of B teams and they said they have an excellent batch of players coming through right now. Scotland is such a backward place sometimes. 

[Marten]

I am friends with a few Dutch youth coaches and they are very strong supporters of B teams and they said they have an excellent batch of players coming through right now. Scotland is such a backward place sometimes. 

And there are plenty of other youth coaches & pro clubs who disagree with them, there is plenty of disagreement on them between various people involved in youth football. The vast majority of pro clubs never bothered to get their own B-team.

[edinabear]

Would be good for the Highland league as well if Dundee, Dundee United and Aberdeen add their B teams into the league. Will add some prestige. 

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Just because you're angry about B-Teams and don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad.

Aren't we seeing the first real crops from the last set of changes in Scotland. Youth players being signed by clubs in the EPL, Germany, and Italy. Breaking through into Scottish first teams and the international teams. None of whom kicked a ball for a B team.

The reason why the OF want B teams is because they can't keep their best players for long enough to make a significant profit. So they want to fill the spots created by the Ben Doak's and likely Rory Wilson disappearing by signing players from elsewhere. B Teams around the world aren't really about developing talent, they're about hoarding talent.

 

[Marten]

9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

And the success of Spanish football in recent decades has roots in Holland / Cruyff.

Spain has had B-teams for a very long time, yet they were basically the biggest underachievers in international football until they won Euro 2008. It wasn't B-teams that changed it for them...

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, edinabear said:

I am friends with a few Dutch youth coaches and they are very strong supporters of B teams and they said they have an excellent batch of players coming through right now. Scotland is such a backward place sometimes. 

See many examples of that at Ibrox…

[Gordon EF]

27 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

FRANCE - 3rd best in the world

17 out of 23 players in their squad played in B teams, incuding Mbappe (Monaco - 12 apps).  

391 appearances overall.  Average age (current) = 26

What's the problem? 

 

 

 

I really have no idea if you're a shit troll or just slow on the uptake. But just how much different do you think those 12 B team appearances made to Killian Mbappe? Do you think he'd be a significantly worse player without them? And if so, by how much?

[Che Dail]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

Well, no wonder! 

To most observers, the EoS league this season has been phenomenal - what has been achieved in such a short space of time, I'd say, is well above and beyond what any club could have expected before moving across from the Junior grade.  

Yes - there needs to be greater movement between the EoS / WoS and Lowland League - but as things stands that's wholly outwith the control of the leagues below it - hopefully things will change in time.

The B-Teams is a side-issue to the real problems with the pyramid - and I believe reform is needed from the top down, which won't happen unless a business-like proposal for re-structuring is put to all clubs to show how everyone wins. 

If we accept in principle that B-teams can exist alongside established clubs, they really shouldn't be in the Lowland League but further up the chain - as is evidenced by their successful implementation across Europe.  And they shouldn't (they currently don't) stop the free-flow of movement between the leagues.