Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Ginaro]

6 minutes ago, BuddyZero said:

* the self preservation mob in the LL would all get to stay at tier 5, some going in East and some in West 

This is a similar argument for LL2, but as soon as you add the best (licensed) clubs from the EOS and WOS to the LL all it does is put more teams above those who would be relegated from the LL anyway. With one down from each, and with the likes of VOL and Gretna certain to finish below the promoted clubs, then not much self-preservation has actually taken place!

LL East	LL West
Bonnyrigg Rose	East Kilbride
The Spartans	Celtic B
Berwick Rangers	Rangers B
Civil Service Strollers	Caledonian Braves
East Stirlingshire	Dalbeattie Star
Gala Fairydean Rovers	Cumbernauld Colts
Bo'ness United	Gretna 2008
Broomhill	Auchinleck Talbot
University of Stirling	Pollok
Edinburgh University	Darvel
Vale of Leithen	Clydebank
Penicuik Athletic	Kilwinning Rangers
Linlithgow Rose	Cumnock Juniors
Tranent Juniors	Benburb
Hearts B	Irvine Meadow
Hibernian B	Rutherglen Glencairn

[rockson]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I can only see the SPFL accepting a 3rd feeder with the trade off being 4 way playoff between the 3 champions and Club 42.

They wouldn't accept a third feeder. They'd want a play-off between LL east and LL west to decide who'd play-off with HL winner - to then play-off with Club 42.

As I've said before I dont expect the SPFL to open up further until an ex-SPFL team manages to get back up into it, thereby showing it can be done.

[Cyclizine]

36 minutes ago, BuddyZero said:

So, a 3rd Tier 5 league would solve almost all the problems in one fell swoop. Too simplistic? Too sensible?

Too simplistic and ignoring all the discussions over the years. The S(P)FL never wanted two feeders, let alone three. They wanted a single division, two was a compromise. Remember as well that the the promotion/relegation agreements between the leagues are just that, agreements. Any changes need to be agreed by all parties.

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, rockson said:

They wouldn't accept a third feeder...

That gets stated a lot on here but recent events suggests otherwise. The SFA board had a plan to split the LL into LL East and LL West so they could get the east region of the SJFA in as a feeder alongside the EoS.  Apparently they had been led to believe that the LL would go along with that but it soon turned out not to be the case. Doubt they would have bothered trying if the SPFL were going to be opposed. There is considerable overlap on who runs the SFA and the SPFL at board level, so the right hand probably would have known what the left hand was doing in that context.

That's all dead in the water now though. Unfortunately we are going to have to wait for more ex-EoS premier clubs like Gala Fairydean who Thomas Brown represents to get relegated before a junior fitba style 3 up 3 down will be on the agenda. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

Had a look around for the u18s League Table since the idea of youth development is still used to justify the use of guest clubs. As these are the ones you'd be looking to step up next season to an u20s team. Not looking that great for Celtic on the field, they might need a bigger cheque.

[Jack Burton]

As an outsider looking in not a fan at all of the B/Colts team in the LL but also noticing a lot of comments saying there are a few teams who don't deserve to be in the LL due to being fairly new clubs or small fan base etc from fans of clubs in the EOSL and WOSL, all of the big junior clubs have had plenty of opportunities to apply to join the LL over the years if they wanted but opted to remain in juniors.
 
Now there is a pyramid they seem to think they have god given right to play in the LL above these other clubs, I personally think there should be more promotion/relegation to/from LL as there should in the HL but I don't blame the teams for voting against this when they have been and are continued to be looked down upon by ex junior clubs.
 
 

The LL clubs are taking the piss now. You can't keep using the they were there first justification for their recent decisions.

There is plenty of ex Junior clubs that have come across and spent a fair bit of time and money to get their licence to all but have the door slammed shut in their face.

The LL clearly has space for two more clubs but would rather whore these spaces out to whatever B sides will pay the most money. You've also got a farcical situation were Vale of Leithen can continually finish bottom, season after season, with less than 10 points and a goal difference of minus 100 and potentially still not get relegated. That's despite there being about 100 clubs below them in the pyramid setup.

The LL should be a fairly decent league by now instead it's populated by B teams, Uni sides and the husks of Edusport and BSC. There is no chance of any increased promotion to the SPFL with the current make up of the LL.

[BuddyZero]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

Too simplistic and ignoring all the discussions over the years. The S(P)FL never wanted two feeders, let alone three. They wanted a single division, two was a compromise. Remember as well that the the promotion/relegation agreements between the leagues are just that, agreements. Any changes need to be agreed by all parties.

Not sure exactly how they do it in other countries but there seems to be a lot more flexibility and adaptability about league systems every so often, you see it across the continent. The voting system we have here appears to be good democracy at first glance but stifles all but the most meagre alterations at the slowest pace imaginable, with all parties not surprisingly choosing the option of whatever benefits them the most in the short term, which is usually the status quo. Proper democracies function not only with a fair share of voting but with limited terms of office. You're right that agreements are required to change these setups, but the agreements that are made are so obstructive to progress that there's barely any point trying to improve anything. I don't know what the ideal system should be but the behaviour of the LL clubs and the seniors in the past indicates letting the clubs themselves wield the power is a recipe for only self interest, carve-ups, closed shops and staleness. 

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, BuddyZero said:

Not sure exactly how they do it in other countries but there seems to be a lot more flexibility and adaptability about league systems every so often, you see it across the continent. The voting system we have here appears to be good democracy at first glance but stifles all but the most meagre alterations at the slowest pace imaginable, with all parties not surprisingly choosing the option of whatever benefits them the most in the short term, which is usually the status quo. Proper democracies function not only with a fair share of voting but with limited terms of office. You're right that agreements are required to change these setups, but the agreements that are made are so obstructive to progress that there's barely any point trying to improve anything. I don't know what the ideal system should be but the behaviour of the LL clubs and the seniors in the past indicates letting the clubs themselves wield the power is a recipe for only self interest, carve-ups, closed shops and staleness. 

The whole thing needs shaken up.

We don't yet have a 'pyramid' in Scotland.  The league structure is a 'column', shaped by self interest from top to bottom.  If we followed Central European precedent our league structure would be regional at Tier 3 or Tier 4, with B teams at T2 or T3 alongside other full-time professionals.  

B-Teams feature across a belt of countries from Portugal to Slovakia:

1. Portugal (in T2); 2. Spain (T2); 3. France (T4); 4. Switzerland (T3); 5. Netherlands (T2); 6. Germany (T3); 7. Austria (T2); 8 Czech Rep (T2); 9. Poland (T3); Slovakia (T2)

[BuddyZero]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

This is a similar argument for LL2, but as soon as you add the best (licensed) clubs from the EOS and WOS to the LL all it does is put more teams above those who would be relegated from the LL anyway. With one down from each, and with the likes of VOL and Gretna certain to finish below the promoted clubs, then not much self-preservation has actually taken place!

Agree, but let's be honest, feck those guys. I won't deny that this theoretical setup is meant to be something that clings to reality in terms of having similarities to the current shambles and providing concessions to it, but is basically meant to sidestep the LL and give opportunities to the Tier 6 and below that are currently getting absolutely shafted by this pyramid with bottlenecks. I know the West Juniors maybe held out too long before coming across but their quantity and quality should have led to an intervention by this point, and removing them from the bloated structure would allow the remaining East to become a fairer representation of the old East Juniors and EoS which is a pretty decent group. Some will probably have insight that pees on this view but I think the 3 regions for Juniors was a good divide, obviously the North was weak but then we have the Highlands to even that up, and the West was stronger than the East but a few of the EoS can and do hold their own. That setup seems so obviously superior to the LL mess to me (and could even better withstand a few colts getting chucked in with some compensatory cash - as I said, much more than the pittance currently being deemed acceptable) that it's a damn shame that nobody higher up this magical pyramid appears to have the will or the way to say 'actually guys yous are making a complete arse of this, you've shown yourself to be selfish and incompetent we're changing it to this for the benefit of more than 5 clubs with 5 fans.' 

Edited April 6, 2022 by BuddyZero
Typo

[newcastle broon]

13 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Yes we know.

I don't think wanting more than one promotion place is expressing a "God given right" to be honest, just a fair crack of the whip. 

The highlighted part sums up the attitude of some of these clubs, a big boy said some nasty things so we're going to f*ck up the Pyramid.  Believe me, some of these clubs think they have a "God given right" to a LL place, as they founded it, it's theirs.....

Pedantic post of the day though worth noting if the HFL champions are promoted and if Vale and Gretna both go down theres only 5 founding teams left. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Hearing something is in the works to f**k over the lowland league, exciting times ahead. 

[edinabear]

13 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Hearing something is in the works to f**k over the lowland league, exciting times ahead. 

This is bound to fail. 

[bravehearts dad]

10 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Hearing something is in the works to f**k over the lowland league, exciting times ahead. 

Hope that is the case,, but will clubs, individuals put their name to any proposals? 

We know that Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness, East Stirlingshire voted against the proposal for guest clubs in the LL. Berwick abstained. I have not seen any mention of the 4th(good boy) club that voted against the proposal? Anybody know?

C’mon The Rose

[edinabear]

10 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Pedantic post of the day though worth noting if the HFL champions are promoted and if Vale and Gretna both go down theres only 5 founding teams left. 

Good point. I still think there should be at least 2 relegation places available but there has been quite a bit of movement in and out of the league since foundation. 

 

[Burnieman]

10 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Pedantic post of the day though worth noting if the HFL champions are promoted and if Vale and Gretna both go down theres only 5 founding teams left. 

There are, but the principle still applies to those that followed.  Many truly believe it's their league that these nasty Juniors now want to take over and kick us out.

[LongTimeLurker]

East Kilbride, Spartans, Civil Service Strollers, Caledonian Braves, Dalbeattie Star, Gala Fairydean Rovers, University of Stirling, Broomhill, Cumbernauld Colts, Edinburgh University, Gretna and Vale of Leithen all predate the arrival of Kelty Hearts in 2018-19, so 12 out of 16 are still part of the EoS/SoS plus youth clubs clique. It's going to take another 5 to 10 years to get that whittled down to a small enough minority to retrofit the league into something more fit for purpose.

Edited April 7, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[Marten]

Hope that is the case,, but will clubs, individuals put their name to any proposals? 

We know that Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness, East Stirlingshire voted against the proposal for guest clubs in the LL. Berwick abstained. I have not seen any mention of the 4th(good boy) club that voted against the proposal? Anybody know?
C’mon The Rose [emoji257][emoji257][emoji257]

At a guess I'd say Civil Service Strollers. They have been very outspoken against this last year and from having been there and spoken to a committee member, I'd be surprised if they changed their mind.

[RossBFaeDundee]

10 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Hearing something is in the works to f**k over the lowland league, exciting times ahead. 

Hope so. If the 3 leagues in the southern tier 6 and a big enough chunk of good guy LL teams are able to work something out, surely that'd be a good start toward a real southern tier 5 league, and hopefully the SPFL and SFA would be interested in working with them.

Purely pie-in-the-sky stuff from me I am fully aware, but any attempt to combat this rubbish would be welcomed.

Edited April 7, 2022 by RossBFaeDundee

[cmontheloknow]

The LL is not going to get bumped out of tier 5.

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Hearing something is in the works to f**k over the lowland league, exciting times ahead. 

Hopefully there's something else lumbering over the horizon that they need the SFA to sign off on so pressure can be brought to bear again like it was with the Club 42 Tay Bridge boundary. It's unfortunate that was the SFA's main priority rather than the tier 6 promotion bottleneck. Maybe EoS, SoS and WoS clubs could stop participating in the South Challenge Cup and do something else instead in terms of a flagship cup competition minus the LL?