LongTimeLurker Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 31 minutes ago, Che Dail said: it was not a good enough standard to aid the transition from B team to 1st team - so 5 or 6 clubs left it behind, including Hibs, Aberdeen, Celtic & Rangers - ... ...but playing Vale of Leithen and Gretna would be? I could live with more of a German or Spanish style approach to U-23 teams in lower divisions if it was the price for prizing open the Club 42 playoff and getting rid of a tier or two of national divisions but there's clearly no way anything radical is ever getting through the SPFL's voting structure at this point so maybe the clubs mentioned need to find a way to design an elite fully professional reserves set up that does work for them in terms of that transition? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: I could live with more of a German or Spanish style approach to U-23 teams in lower divisions if it was the price for prizing open the Club 42 playoff and getting rid of a tier or two of national divisions but there's clearly no way anything radical is ever getting through the SPFL's voting structure at this point Yeah, imagine half the clubs in the SPFL not voting for a double helping of shite for absolutely nothing in return. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: Yeah, imagine half the clubs in the SPFL not voting for a double helping of shite for absolutely nothing in return. Your happy enough to take the subsidy drip feed from revenues generated primarily from the viewing habits of armchair fans of the Old Firm. That inflates your clubs financially well beyond what they could do if left to their own devices so there's a reasonable enough argument to be made that you should put up with a few colt teams in exchange if it really does aid the transition of top prospects. Doing it at tier 5 instead this season is asinine though. Genuine top prospects should be moving well past Dalbeattie Star level by 18 or so. Edited June 16, 2021 by LongTimeLurker -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Your happy enough to take the subsidy drip feed from revenues generated primarily from the viewing habits of armchair fans of the Old Firm. That inflates your clubs financially well beyond what they could do if left to their own devices so there's a reasonable enough argument to be made that you should put up with a few colt teams in exchange if it really does aid the transition of top prospects. I'd happily give up any subsidy to get rid of the old firm from Scottish football. I'd also happily sacrifice part of the 'subsidy' East Fife get if it meant a better, fairer league structure. So basically, you're talking shite. Edited June 16, 2021 by Gordon EF 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said: ...but playing Vale of Leithen and Gretna would be? I could live with more of a German or Spanish style approach to U-23 teams in lower divisions if it was the price for prizing open the Club 42 playoff and getting rid of a tier or two of national divisions but there's clearly no way anything radical is ever getting through the SPFL's voting structure at this point so maybe the clubs mentioned need to find a way to design an elite fully professional reserves set up that does work for them in terms of that transition? I know, it won't - but in fairness their preference had been to enter teams at least one tier up from LL. On structure: Scotland only needs (and can only sustain) two FT professional leagues. Longer term, if admitted, I think B teams should be limited to T2. At T3 I think we should have a national semi-pro 'Conference' of 16 clubs and T4 could be split regionally: LLW / LLE / Central / Highland. Something along those lines, a bit like the Czech league system. But instead of a pyramid shape, we have a 'column' structure. Edited June 16, 2021 by Che Dail -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockson Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Che Dail said: How will it ruin lower league football in Scotland? How can you possibly reach this conclusion? "People who support B-teams don't care about lower league football in Scotland. That is simply a fact." No, that is patently not a fact, it is another hysterical (and incorrect) claim, based on what you mistakenly believe. You cannot possibly back that statement up with fact. You only have to look at the way Rangers and Cetic have behaved over the years to realise that they don't give a toss about lower league teams - the attempt to remove five teams from the Scottish League in the early 60s, the formation of the Premier Division in the 1970s (supposedly to help them compete in Europe - it had the absolutely opposite effect) the throwing of all except top division teams under the bus with the formation of the SPL (which Dundee's boss wants to repeat!) Now this proposal to shoehorn their B teams into the system by bribery. None of those exhibited any kind of duty of care towards clubs in the same league structure as them. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Che Dail said: How will it ruin lower league football in Scotland? How can you possibly reach this conclusion? "People who support B-teams don't care about lower league football in Scotland. That is simply a fact." No, that is patently not a fact, it is another hysterical (and incorrect) claim, based on what you mistakenly believe. You cannot possibly back that statement up with fact. I've already set out my detailed arguments several times, partly based on experience in The Netherlands. I'm not going to repeat myself considering you struggle with reading anyway. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) ^^^ironically his club there, Excelsior Rotterdam, have a second amateur team in the lower reaches of the Dutch pyramid, which is nothing hugely unusual in a Dutch context: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBV_Excelsior#Amateurs Part of the problem in the Netherlands is that when they tried to bring in a pyramid a few years back almost none of the top smaller part-time clubs actually wanted to be promoted into the fully professional second tier and the only one that tried to step up, Achilles '29, failed dismally at it and have yet to recover from the experience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_'29 Promotion for clubs with first teams in the third tier has now been suspended. That means Jong Ajax & co are arguably needed at the moment to keep the numbers up in the eerste divisie as smaller Dutch second tier clubs have a nasty habit of folding Third Lanark style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Eerste_Divisie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweede_Divisie Edited June 17, 2021 by LongTimeLurker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 16 hours ago, Che Dail said: According to the squad on wiki, they have 19 Croats out of a 33 squad = 57%. Same as Slavia Prague. Now consider the graduates playing at bigger clubs elsewhere: Eduardo, Modric, Corluka, Lovren, Vrsaljko, Brozovic, Kovacic, Olmo, Pjaca, Madzukic. The Academy is doing a cracking job. Slavia Prague's squad is 57% Croatian? Not developing home grown talent much, are they? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbigal Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I would have thought Rangers and Celtic signing less Johny Journeymen, and developing Scots through their 1st teams might help Scottish football better.I mean let's face it, scudding Vale of No Relegation Leithen is bound to have us swimming in superkids. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: ^^^ironically his club there, Excelsior Rotterdam, have a second amateur team in the lower reaches of the Dutch pyramid, which is nothing hugely unusual in a Dutch context: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBV_Excelsior#Amateurs Part of the problem in the Netherlands is that when they tried to bring in a pyramid a few years back almost none of the top smaller part-time clubs actually wanted to be promoted into the fully professional second tier and the only one that tried to step up, Achilles '29, failed dismally at it and have yet to recover from the experience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_'29 Promotion for the first teams of clubs from the third tier has now been suspended. That means Jong Ajax & co are arguably needed at the moment to keep the numbers up in the eerste divisie as smaller Dutch second tier clubs have a nasty habit of folding Third Lanark style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Eerste_Divisie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweede_Divisie If you don't know anything about the Dutch non-league system, don't say anything... The amateurs are completely separate from the professional setup, they are a separate club. And the rules have been set extremely strict on promotion from the third team, meaning hardly any clubs can afford promotion. The Dutch pyramid is even more of a mess than the Scottish one. That's why I'm passionate on here about the pyramid and colt teams. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Here's the google translation of what Dutch language wikipedia has to say about the Excelsior amateur team: In addition to a professional branch, Excelsior also has an amateur branch Sports Club Excelsior. Up to and including the 2012/13 season, the amateurs played on Sundays. Since the 2013/14 season, SC Excelsior has been playing on Saturdays. The current Saturday team plays in the Fourth Division Saturday of the West II district (2020/21). The amateurs play at Sportpark Woudestein, which is located next to the stadium. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 This is some top trolling, google translate and wikipedia. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Third rate spamming troll LTL or actual Dutch person with inside knowledge of the matter in question. Who to side with here? It's a real headscratcher isn't it? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) The rational thing to do is to side with facts rather than personalities. It is normal for Dutch professional clubs to still have an amateur team playing in the lower reaches of the pyramid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax_(amateurs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SC_Feyenoord The only relatively recent innovation beyond that has been that a limited number of colt teams have been able to be part of the fully professional Eerste Divisie. A big part of the reason that happened was that it was short of its full complement in numbers terms after Veendam and AGOVV folded and most suitable clubs from below didn't actually want to be promoted to fill the vacant league places. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_Eerste_Divisie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_Eerste_Divisie Edited June 17, 2021 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Even if we accept the flimsy nonsense about player development in B teams helping the national team by developing players (it doesn't but let's humour it for a minute), the purpose of lower league football is not to facilitate the national team. Clubs are competing to win trophies, provide entertainment to their communities/supporters and to progress up the structure through their performances on the park. The national team is completely separate. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 The Old Firm are clearly not getting their colt teams into the SPFL any time soon. Having them in the LL is a farce where the stated purpose is concerned. Think the only rational solution is for them to set something up in reserve team terms with other larger like-minded full-time clubs (Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts, etc) of a high enough standard to address their needs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: The rational thing to do is to side with facts rather than personalities. It is normal for Dutch professional clubs to still have an amateur team playing in the lower reaches of the pyramid. It's normal for Scottish clubs to amateurs/community clubs as well. They aren't 'B' teams or reserves though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: The rational thing to do is to side with facts rather than personalities. It is normal for Dutch professional clubs to still have an amateur team playing in the lower reaches of the pyramid. You miss the main reason for this, which is that in many countries: Netherlands, Germany, Iceland etc, organised football developed differently to here. The majority of football clubs started as departments of multi-sports members' clubs and still run as such. You mention SC Feyenoord, which, as far as I know, is the multi-sport club that happens to have a football department. The professional side grew out of this but split off from the structures of the multi-sport club. @Marten will know more about this than me. There's a book about the development of German football called Tor! that is a good read about how the system started. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 ^^^nothing in this contradicts anything I have written. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.