Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[parsforlife]

Something something ... Holland something something Spain.

[Marten]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Something something ... Holland something something Spain.

The best Dutch player of the night, Denzel Dumfries, used the extensive Dutch youth structures that goes right down to the lower levels of the game. He came through the ranks of a club who were (at the time) bouncing between tiers 6 & 7, until being picked up by a tier 4 club and a year later by a tier 2 club, ending up at PSV not much later. That system is far more effective to raise talents than B-teams.

Let's copy that in Scotland.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Marten

[Gordon EF]

The best Dutch player of the night, Denzel Dumfries, used the extensive Dutch youth structures that go right down to the lower levels of the game. He came through the rank of a club who were (at the time) bouncing between tiers 6 & 7, until being picked up by a tier 4 club and a year later by a tier 2 club, ending up at PSV not much later. That system is far more effective to raise talents than B-teams.
Let's copy that in Scotland.

I'm sure we can find a Dumfries in the South of Scotland League.

[Andy groundhopper]

Think the idea of other spfl colts coming in at the bottom, along with hopeful Amateurs, would probably help some of the players. Question, are there enough talented players ready to come through the non league system AND be given a chance by the spfl ? Scottish youngsters and not loads of cheap imports.

[Che Dail]

On 13/06/2021 at 18:30, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Watched the England vs Croatia game, whats everyones thoughts on Colt Teams benefiting the national sides now? Especially keen to hear from the folks who used Croatia as an example. 

Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.

They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018.  Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period. 

Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.

It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration.  Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years. 

That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring.  Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.

https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/

 

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.

They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018.  Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period. 

Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.

It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration.  Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years. 

That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring.  Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.

https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/

 

 

In the same way it's daft in looking at one game, what exactly is the point in looking at 20 years of history? The vast majority of which 2nd XIs didn't participate in the Croation professional leagues and has had little to no impact on the National team.

It's almost as if Croatian football has been doing other things all that time that have given them an edge over the likes of Scotland.

[Che Dail]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

In the same way it's daft in looking at one game, what exactly is the point in looking at 20 years of history? The vast majority of which 2nd XIs didn't participate in the Croation professional leagues and has had little to no impact on the National team.

It's almost as if Croatian football has been doing other things all that time that have given them an edge over the likes of Scotland.

JEEZO (slams head on desk).

[A Believer]

Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.
They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018.  Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period. 
Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.
It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration.  Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years. 
That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring.  Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.
https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/
 

Great stuff [emoji106] Regretfully some won't let factual trend analysis get in the way of good old fashioned deep-seated opinion based on anecdote.

[oneteaminglasgow]

I’m sorry, but anyone who genuinely thinks the integrity of domestic football in Scotland should be sacrificed so that we can be a bit higher in the FIFA rankings isn’t worth debating with. 

[Che Dail]

13 minutes ago, A Believer said:

Great stuff Regretfully some won't let factual trend analysis get in the way of good old fashioned deep-seated opinion based on anecdote.

Cheers.  Unfortunately,  ignorance, pessimism and populist untruths are pervasive.

For further reading try FACTFULNESS by Hans Rosling.  Ten reasons why we're wrong about the world, and why things are better than you think.  The book features 10 instincts that distort our perspective including: Negativity, Fear, Size, Generalization, Blame, Urgency etc.

On the subject of B-Teams, we have all this 'best-practice' evidence across Europe to learn from... set against an "Aye Been / It'll never work here / over my dead body" mentality towards change in this country.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Che Dail

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I’m sorry, but anyone who genuinely thinks the integrity of domestic football in Scotland should be sacrificed so that we can be a bit higher in the FIFA rankings isn’t worth debating with. 

Don't then.  Just red dot everyone who has a different opinion.  All the best 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Che Dail

[craigkillie]

47 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.

They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018.  Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period. 

Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.

It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration.  Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years. 

That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring.  Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.

https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/

 

 

Given that they achieved their best ranking in 1998 when they didn't have B teams, and seem to be on the slide ever since they were introduced and players from them started to come through, I'm not sure this is making the point you think it is.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

27 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

JEEZO (slams head on desk).

Well, it's pretty simple. Croation youth development has led to a more successful national team performance than Scotland for decades. B teams of a handful teams were introduced less than ten years ago to the Croatian professional leagues. The fruits of that have represented a handful of players that have taken part in their WC 2018 & Euro 2020 squads.

What aspects of Croation youth development model are the OF, SFA, SPFL introducing to Scottish football other than 'B' teams?

[Che Dail]

21 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

Given that they achieved their best ranking in 1998 when they didn't have B teams, and seem to be on the slide ever since they were introduced and players from them started to come through, I'm not sure this is making the point you think it is.

 

On the slide...? For goodness sake.  Population 4m? They are and have been punching well above their weight for over 20 years.  They won their qualifying group for the Euros, and currently are top of their qualifying group for the 2022 World Cup.

The point is, they have an extremely successful youth development program - this is evidenced by the number of young players exported to the best leagues in Europe and  by the consistent success of their national team.  The player pathway includes B Teams from the top professional clubs. 

So why is it acceptable in Croatia, but not in Scotland?

Edited June 15, 2021 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

On the slide...? For goodness sake.  Population 4m? They are and have been punching well above their weight for over 20 years.  They won their qualifying group for the Euros, and currently are top of their qualifying group for the 2022 World Cup.

The point is, they have an extremely successful youth development program - this is evidenced by the number of young players exported to the best leagues in Europe and  by the consistent success of their national team.  The player pathway includes B Teams from the top professional clubs. 

So why is it acceptable in Croatia, but not in Scotland?

Out of the 10 youngest players in their squad, four of them have appearances for a Croation II. Totalling 49 appearances.

Domagoj Bradarić     35    Hajduk Split II
Josip Brekalo                  9    Dinamo Zagreb II
Joško Gvardiol                4    Dinamo Zagreb II
Dominik Livaković         1    Dinamo Zagreb II

So again, other than the introduction of 'B' teams. What exactly has Scottish football learned from researching Croation youth development.

[craigkillie]

29 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

On the slide...? For goodness sake.  Population 4m? They are and have been punching well above their weight for over 20 years.  They won their qualifying group for the Euros, and currently are top of their qualifying group for the 2022 World Cup.

The point is, they have an extremely successful youth development program - this is evidenced by the number of young players exported to the best leagues in Europe and  by the consistent success of their national team.  The player pathway includes B Teams from the top professional clubs. 

So why is it acceptable in Croatia, but not in Scotland?

 

Them punching above their weight doesn't seem to have anything to do with B teams, given that you have pointed out that they have been doing it for the last 20 years, long before the B teams were part of the league system. Your plot illustrated the downward slide in their rankings over the last 4 years, which corresponds with these B team players beginning to integrate into the national team.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Croatia is an anomaly and so are their B teams. Their squad that made the WC final, excluding those who were raised outside Croatia, has more players who came through Dinamo Zagreb's youth system than all the other Croatian clubs combined. Over half their outfield players came through at Dinamo. 

If Scotland want to "copy" Croatia we'd ask Celtic to put almost all of their profits into their youth system, win the league each year, and build their own private academies around the country while the other 41 clubs feed off the scraps

[Che Dail]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Them punching above their weight doesn't seem to have anything to do with B teams, given that you have pointed out that they have been doing it for the last 20 years, long before the B teams were part of the league system. Your plot illustrated the downward slide in their rankings over the last 4 years, which corresponds with these B team players beginning to integrate into the national team.

If the people leading some of the best youth football development programs in Europe believe that the introduction of B Team football was and still is necessary as part of their overall program, chances are there is great substance and qualitative evidence to back their decision making.  This in itself makes it worth listening to and following their lead.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

If the people leading some of the best youth football development programs in Europe believe that the introduction of B Team football was and still is necessary as part of their overall program, chances are there is great substance and qualitative evidence to back their decision making.  This in itself makes it worth listening to and following their lead.

Belgium has B teams? The use of B teams in Croatia mostly serves Dinamo Zagreb rather than any of the other clubs in the division.

[Marten]

Belgium has B teams? The use of B teams in Croatia mostly serves Dinamo Zagreb rather than any of the other clubs in the division.

They had one and only for last season. Clubs just voted against expanding that. And the one that was there, Club Brugge b, finished bottom and performed woefully. Not exactly a good example.

Then again, he keeps coming up with the shite about Croatia, ignoring the fact that B-teams had no influence whatsoever on their national team.