Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[PastyMan]

2 hours ago, It's Me said:

One thing I haven't seen anywhere which intrigues me. 

So far none of the clubs who have opposed this proposal have said they won't accept the cssh that comes from it. Will they still accept the cash when it's handed out?????? 

Surely it's the teams who voted in FAVOUR who should turn down the money?
This would show they voted to help out the OF out of principle NOT just for the cash

[Che Dail]

4 hours ago, Le Tout P'ti FC said:

Can anybody confirm whether this new book will have a chapter on Dalbeattie Star?

I think the bridesmaids are in Gretna - near enough!

[Che Dail]

6 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

What on Earth do the LL have to argue/bargain/debate with when they come to the table to argue for greater promotion/relegation to the SPFL?

I agree - I was kind of meaning the other way round tho - that the EoS / WoS / SoS  should be pushing hard for it, which I'm sure they will be

[Ginaro]

30 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

My understanding is that any proposed rule changes would need to have been submitted by yesterday ahead of the LL AGM. Any club can propose something with the backing of one other.

Really, really hope I’m wrong but I don’t think further relegation will be on the table. In my opinion, we should be aiming for three down every year but realistically they’d only vote to add one more spot.

So when George said "maybe we as a league have to recognise that we have to do something and be proactive" when referring to his buzzword of "ventilation" on the SFA podcast, he was just hoping a random club would submit a relegation rule change rather than encouraging clubs (especially his own) to propose one? 

Not had a chance to listen to your podcast yet, what did he say about relegation?

32 minutes ago, It's Me said:

I still think a second division in the LL is a good idea. Bring in 16 licensed clubs from East, South and West to create the league with second division winners go up, runners up into a play-off with club 15 and three clubs relegated each season. Allowing the winners of the South, West and East to go into division 2. 

Let me get this right, you take 8 EOS and 8 WOS clubs and put them in LL2, and then provide only provide an additional 0.5 promotion spots to get into the LL proper?  Seems a lot of work when an extra relegation spot (and the SOS taking a step down) would do the job even better with less hassle of a new division.

Plus if VOL were relegated under this scenario, they would be more likely to fall straight through LL2 as it contains the best of east and west, whereas they might have a chance in the EOS Premier.

[Che Dail]

5 hours ago, PastyMan said:

For those of us enjoying the banter between Che and Marten

Dutchsplaining

/ˈdchspleɪnɪŋ/

 

noun

informal

noun: dutchsplaining

1. the explanation of something by a self appointed expert in Dutch football, typically to a person from the Netherlands, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.

   eg "your response about Cruyff is classic Dutchsplaining"

 

Ok I get it.  But really, I was referring to experts on Dutch football, not claiming to be one myself.

Out of interest and in the good natured spirit of 'the banter', what's the (reverse) term for a self-appointed expert on Scottish football, from Holland..?  

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Not had a chance to listen to your podcast yet, what did he say about relegation?

What he had to say largely reignited the LL2 chat as in his opinion LL2 or two divisions of the LL might be the way to go.

Starts around 30:45 which it is set up to start at below:

 

 

[Born To Run]

30 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Not had a chance to listen to your podcast yet, what did he say about relegation?.

He agreed that it needed looking at without confirming any exact timescale. Long term, LL2 was mentioned as well.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Born To Run

[Che Dail]

9 hours ago, virginton said:

How can evidence be gathered of long-term player development in a single year? What are the benchmarks for success that this trial has to meet? 

Be extremely specific.

First year we will know if the OF helped the league attract a sponsor.  If they increased the home gates. If the players were competitive, or not.  If fans' attitude towards it is positive or negative after a season of play.   

These are all specific and measurable results / outcomes after a single year.

[Tutankhamen]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

First year we will know if the OF helped the league attract a sponsor.  If they increased the home gates. If the players were competitive, or not.  If fans' attitude towards it is positive or negative after a season of play.   

These are all specific and measurable results / outcomes after a single year.

Wouldn't take much to increase some of those crowds

[Che Dail]

5 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Will any of them be appointed manager of Rangers reserves?

Who knows? They might go for Zinedine Zidane, ex Real Madrid B Team manager.

[Gordon EF]

46 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I agree - I was kind of meaning the other way round tho - that the EoS / WoS / SoS  should be pushing hard for it, which I'm sure they will be

I'll agree with you on that point. I think all league bodies need to sit down with each other and talk some of this stuff out and listen to what each other have to say. The pyramid's great but if different parts of it are working at cross purposes and allow resentment to build up, it's not going to be good for anyone. Sit down and see what consensus can be built.

[Dundee Hibernian]

9 hours ago, Che Dail said:

I support the idea of trying this pilot, for one season, on the basis set out in the graphic shared by the LL. 

The authors of the innovation paper have also written and researched the subject professionally, and have travelled extensively across Europe to find out for themselves.  B teams are just one part of a series of recommendations around youth development in Scotland, and I think it's worth testing it.

I recall the graphic being linked earlier last week, but can't locate it now, as it seems to have been removed from some club sites: can you post this graphic for interest again, please?

And this innovation paper, which you mention as being written professionally, can you provide a link to it as well? Thanks.

3 hours ago, It's Me said:

One thing I haven't seen anywhere which intrigues me. 

So far none of the clubs who have opposed this proposal have said they won't accept the cssh that comes from it. Will they still accept the cash when it's handed out?????? 

 

3 hours ago, Born To Run said:

Of course they will. Just because they disagree with a proposal doesn’t mean they should refuse any resulting funds out of spite.

 

3 hours ago, It's Me said:

Will be interesting to see what they do. If they are so against it I would expect them to not be accepting money from it. 

if they are so against it, using your reasoning, should they refuse to play against the Colts too?

Unlikely the slush money will be given to the clubs in any case.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

I recall the graphic being linked earlier last week, but can't locate it now, as it seems to have been removed from some club sites: can you post this graphic for interest again, please?

Lowland League Proposal - May 2021 minus cover sheet.pdf

5 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

And this innovation paper, which you mention as being written professionally, can you provide a link to it as well? Thanks.

It's been a complaint from some of the SPFL and Lower league clubs that no one outside the SPFL & SFA Board level has seen it.

[Dundee Hibernian]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Lowland League Proposal - May 2021 minus cover sheet.pdf 7.82 MB · 14 downloads

It's been a complaint from some of the SPFL and Lower league clubs that no one outside the SPFL & SFA Board level has seen it.

Thanks: is @Che Dail from the SPFL or SFA then?

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 hour ago, VodkaTap said:

I then tried to think about what benefits Celtic & Rangers would get.
Why this route rather than the usual loan system ?
The loan system has worked well for many years and many clubs have benefited.

The only benefit that I can see for the old firm for this  experiment is that
Celtic will have their team playing the “Celtic way”  & 
Rangers will have their team playing the “Rangers way”

That benefit, if it materialises, will be negligible. The benefit for the OF is getting their second foothold in the system, a further two cuckoos in the pyramid nest. Their minimum aim, while the top squads compete in Scotland, is the Championship for their second string (even although the sides playing in the LL will not be second string).

 

[VodkaTap]

6 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

That benefit, if it materialises, will be negligible. The benefit for the OF is getting their second foothold in the system, a further two cuckoos in the pyramid nest. Their minimum aim, while the top squads compete in Scotland, is the Championship for their second string (even although the sides playing in the LL will not be second string).

 

This sounds like another go on the same old merry-go-round !!

I am not interested - at present- in what happens after this one year experiment.

You seem to have accepted that the LL clubs have already made their minds up to continue after this one year experiment - I don't believe they have, which is why i said to finish

All in all, if it is passed at the AGM, then at the end of this experiment we will all have lots to talk about going forward, but at least we will have a bit of evidence to back it up !

 

[VodkaTap]

15 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

That benefit, if it materialises, will be negligible. The benefit for the OF is getting their second foothold in the system, a further two cuckoos in the pyramid nest. Their minimum aim, while the top squads compete in Scotland, is the Championship for their second string (even although the sides playing in the LL will not be second string).

 

You may be partly right in one aspect though

I do believe the long term aim for the old firm is to have their first teams play in a British league and a second team play at as high a level as possible in Scotland

[Gordon EF]

2 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

With this experiment only for one year, any notion that it would provide a benefit for the national team was always gonna be spurious to say the least.
I then tried to think about what benefits Celtic & Rangers would get.
Why this route rather than the usual loan system ?
The loan system has worked well for many years and many clubs have benefited.

The only benefit that I can see for the old firm for this  experiment is that
Celtic will have their team playing the “Celtic way”  & 
Rangers will have their team playing the “Rangers way”
 

I think it's fair to say that the OF are very much viewing the LL as a foot in the door. They want their B teams in the SPFL and probably want to be able to go as high as the Championship. So, rightly or wrongly, the main advantage to one year in the LL will be as that foot in the door. As far as the main advantage to having B teams in the SPFL. There's three I can think of.

• Like you say, if they can have a B team playing the same formation and system as the A team, they'll probably think that B players are more ready to slot into the specific system used by the A team. I think this is of limited advantage as systems will change under different managers or even season to season under the same manager.
• They don't have to loan their players out to other clubs. Instead of having 10 players out at various SPFL clubs who they have to send 10 scouts out to watch, they'll all be playing for the same club. Again, I don't think this is really a massive advantage. They have the resources to scout all their loan players. It also means they can control playing time. Cole McKinnon at East Fife hasn't started every game since he's been here. If they wanted him starting every week, they could do that in the B team.
• Hoarding players. Youth development is primarily playing the odds for these clubs (and most clubs tbf). In every cohort, at most one player will ever be good enough to make their first team. The more they can hoard, the more likely they are to find that one. They'll bet, probably correctly, that young players are more likely to come to the OF and stay at the OF if they can dangle the chance of playing B team football in front of them. And the ones that aren't good enough to make the first team, they can keep around long enough in the B team and then look to get a transfer fee for some of them, rather than just releasing them for nothing.

I absolutely see what's in it for the OF. I've yet to hear a convincing argument about how it will produce a generation of objectively better players than the current set up will. I don't see how an 18 year old becomes better player for OF B than for Airdrie or QotS on loan or how a 20 year old becomes better playing for OF B than managing to break through into the first team at Hamilton or St Mirren.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Gordon EF

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

First year we will know if the OF helped the league attract a sponsor.  If they increased the home gates. If the players were competitive, or not.  If fans' attitude towards it is positive or negative after a season of play.   

These are all specific and measurable results / outcomes after a single year.

I asked for benchmarks for successful player development, that can be measured in a one year trial. What with you being so concerned about Scotland not producing the same talent as Croatia. So let's run through the drivel you've selected for this then:

Home gates are completely and utterly irrelevant to the player development criteria. 

Fans' attitude is also completely irrelevant to player development criteria. Neither of these meet the criteria for a trial that you yourself have just set.

Players 'being competitive' in the 5th regional tier of Scottish football against brickies over a season does not demonstrate 'development' into an elite, international-level player. 

There are absolutely no measurable criteria for successful player development for this 'trial' and so the verdict will be whatever the Old Firm and their Wormtongue tagalongs say it is. 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by vikingTON

[geo87]

Ffs - I’ll never forgive the LL teams for this.

Never agreed with a Morton fan so much in my life