Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Che Dail]

9 minutes ago, Marten said:

Funny that, as you are actually the one coming with utter drivel. I've written lengthy posts about the actual issues around youth development in Scotland, highlighting that in many areas it's behind countries like The Netherlands and Germany. By ignoring those and just quoting my analogy, you have actually showed exactly why my analogy is a relevant comparison in this. You take one aspect of the youth development in other countries and claim the systems in those countries work because of that, ignoring all other issues relating to youth development in which Scotland is behind those countries. None of those other issues are even being debated, THAT is my biggest issue with this. B-teams are seen as a "quick fix" when the actual issues are not being addressed.

In countries like Germany and The Netherlands, the "colt team" part of the youth development is actually the most controversial part and there clearly isn't universal acceptance (not even in those countries) that that part is even helping. And even the people who support colt teams (yes, the late Johan Cruijff included), don't see it as the main thing of youth development, just as one aspect that might help things along. If those other aspects were also being debated here in Scotland and colt teams were just a part of a large package of complete overhaul of youth development over here, it would be a different matter. But that's not the case now.

It's Rangers who have come out with it - not me.  And if you listen to the men talk about it, it is not drivel.  It is reasoned, measured justification.

I don't know what your skills and area of expertise are - You've written lengthy posts on the issues around youth development in Scotland... do you mean on Pie & Bovril? Or accredited evidence-based academic research published in Journal?

I support the idea of trying this pilot, for one season, on the basis set out in the graphic shared by the LL. 

The authors of the innovation paper have also written and researched the subject professionally, and have travelled extensively across Europe to find out for themselves.  B teams are just one part of a series of recommendations around youth development in Scotland, and I think it's worth testing it.

I'm not an expert, but happy to defer to the suggestions and ideas of football innovators (eg Cruyff / Guardiola / Gerrard / Kompany), and I'm  content they have greater knowledge and insight on this subject than me or you.

[BishyTON]

How can evidence be gathered of long-term player development in a single year? What are the benchmarks for success that this trial has to meet? 
Be extremely specific.

None and OF being happy are the most likely answers to these questions.

As we both know - this is really all about prospect hoarding for the OF and OF help to the LL in expanding promotion/relegation from the SPFL for the LL.

Could B Teams improve our National Team in the long run? I think that is very unlikely, but who knows.

But ultimately the lower leagues should not be greatly devalued for anything, even if it was guaranteed improvement for the SNT.

[Che Dail]

12 minutes ago, Marten said:

Belgian clubs voted to explore the option, Dutch clubs voted to kick it in the long grass as they're not interested. So it isn't moving anywhere. A Dutch/Belgian merger keeps popping back up ever few years only to be kicked in the long grass again.

Ah, ok - apologies -  I've misunderstood the current status - which is that Belgian clubs voted in favour and that's all.

[Marten]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

It's Rangers who have come out with it - not me.  And if you listen to the men talk about it, it is not drivel.  It is reasoned, measured justification.

I don't know what your skills and area of expertise are - You've written lengthy posts on the issues around youth development in Scotland... do you mean on Pie & Bovril? Or accredited evidence-based academic research published in Journal?

I support the idea of trying this pilot, for one season, on the basis set out in the graphic shared by the LL. 

The authors of the innovation paper have also written and researched the subject professionally, and have travelled extensively across Europe to find out for themselves.  B teams are just one part of a series of recommendations around youth development in Scotland, and I think it's worth testing it.

I'm not an expert, but happy to defer to the suggestions and ideas of football innovators (eg Cruyff / Guardiola / Gerrard / Kompany), and I'm  content they have greater knowledge and insight on this subject than me or you.

Not once has it been reported that other issues about youth development are actually being addressed. Because of that, I'm not convinced in the slightest that the OF actually do this to address youth development in Scotland. They do it to further their own interests, nothing more and nothing less. Yes, obviously clubs are bound to talk about their own interests, but the cheek of these two to claim it's for the long-term future of Scottish football, the interests of lower league football and the national team is just pure hypocrisy. They don't care about any of that and shouldn't pretend they do. And I definitely don't believe they only plan to have colt teams for one year only.

The OF can't be trusted, simple as that.

[Gordon EF]

2 hours ago, selfassemblyshire said:

You are so rattled by this.

Obviously.

Quote

Are you okay mate?

Aye, fine. You?

[Che Dail]

9 minutes ago, Marten said:

Not once has it been reported that other issues about youth development are actually being addressed. Because of that, I'm not convinced in the slightest that the OF actually do this to address youth development in Scotland. They do it to further their own interests, nothing more and nothing less. Yes, obviously clubs are bound to talk about their own interests, but the cheek of these two to claim it's for the long-term future of Scottish football, the interests of lower league football and the national team is just pure hypocrisy. They don't care about any of that and shouldn't pretend they do. And I definitely don't believe they only plan to have colt teams for one year only.

The OF can't be trusted, simple as that.

They are absolutely clear and up front that they are seeking to further their own interests.  Both are corporate machines - This exists whether we like it or not.  

So too are Dinamo Zagreb and Ajax - effectively, selling clubs .  And they create great value from the development and nurturing of talent.  Yes, that creates profit - but it also develops talent, to the benefit of their national game.  So they do it for themselves first, and ultimately it benefits the country as a whole.

I'm sure there are a great many wide and varied issues around youth development still to be addressed - it is in pro-clubs interest to do this.  Not sure it is wholly their responsibility, but currently it isn't because there is a lot of good work being done now by the SFA and over the past 10-15 years or so.   Also we've seen a significant increase in quality facilities in recent times.

But I think the B teams issue (and they argue it is important) can only really be resolved properly by and between the clubs.  Rangers have tried to do this by speaking to them all, but have been unable to progress it properly, "Frustrated" until the opportunity arose with the LL.  

It is possible  in future they'll formally apply to join the pyramid at the very bottom, the following season.  But I doubt that will happen.  At the end of the season, if it progresses, the debate will renew, but with the benefit of evidence: 

Did it increase gates?  Did it benefit LL clubs? Did they help find a league sponsor?  Did talent progress? How do the kids compare competitively v men?  Was the integrity of the pyramid compromised? Is there a case to proceed?  The answer to these questions will come in time - if it is given a chance. 

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

It's to do with self interest and fear of change. 

There absolutely should be three (maybe four) feeder leagues from 'non-league' into the 'professional' game.   For a country this size I think there only needs to be 2 pro leagues, and the feeder leagues below that.

[Gordon EF]

39 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It's Rangers who have come out with it - not me.  And if you listen to the men talk about it, it is not drivel.  It is reasoned, measured justification.

I don't know what your skills and area of expertise are - You've written lengthy posts on the issues around youth development in Scotland... do you mean on Pie & Bovril? Or accredited evidence-based academic research published in Journal?

I support the idea of trying this pilot, for one season, on the basis set out in the graphic shared by the LL. 

The authors of the innovation paper have also written and researched the subject professionally, and have travelled extensively across Europe to find out for themselves.  B teams are just one part of a series of recommendations around youth development in Scotland, and I think it's worth testing it.

I'm not an expert, but happy to defer to the suggestions and ideas of football innovators (eg Cruyff / Guardiola / Gerrard / Kompany), and I'm  content they have greater knowledge and insight on this subject than me or you.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

Is that Rod Petrie showing Stewart Alexander out the room?

[Gordon EF]

Just now, Che Dail said:

Is that Rod Petrie showing Stewart Alexander out the room?

Aye, sure.

[oneteaminglasgow]

I, for one, would love to see the “accredited evidence-based academic research published in Journal” written by Steven fucking Gerrard

[Ross.]

I've said before that I think 2nd teams should be allowed into the pyramid but it has to be done correctly and it has to be part of a long term change to youth development in Scotland. The current proposal is ultra short term and very much ill conceived in implementation. Get it in the bin and start again.

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I, for one, would love to see the “accredited evidence-based academic research published in Journal” written by Steven fucking Gerrard

I think he was too busy being a football manager to write it - but fairly sure he found time to read it.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I've said before that I think 2nd teams should be allowed into the pyramid but it has to be done correctly and it has to be part of a long term change to youth development in Scotland. 

Without question, this debacle has been handled poorly and badly communicated - not just the timing, but particularly since there was apparently no dialogue with the EoS / WoS / SoS.  

However, clumsy PR is not a good enough reason to abandon the project - nor is it right to burn bridges and have everyone falling out over a longer period - this benefits no one.  

Before the dust settles on the current diplomatic explosion, and on the subject of sporting integrity, I would hope that the League associations can now get round the table with the LL and  agree a suitable pathway for licensed clubs to make their way through the pyramid - eg get it to 3 or 4 promotion / relegation places asap:  'Ventilation'.

[RiG]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

So they can develop talent.  Same motivation for Rangers and Celtic - yes there is a selfish purpose, and they openly acknowledge that - but they argue there will be wider benefits for Scottish football, as evidenced in other countries.

What are these wider benefits that you speak of and where is the evidence for said benefits?

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, RiG said:

What are these wider benefits that you speak of and where is the evidence for said benefits?

Europe

[Blootoon87]

Europe

That's me convinced then.

[Ira Gaines]

[Gordon EF]

13 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Before the dust settles on the current diplomatic explosion, and on the subject of sporting integrity, I would hope that the League associations can now get round the table with the LL and  agree a suitable pathway for licensed clubs to make their way through the pyramid - eg get it to 3 or 4 promotion / relegation places asap:  'Ventilation'.

What on Earth do the LL have to argue/bargain/debate with when they come to the table to argue for greater promotion/relegation to the SPFL?

[oneteaminglasgow]

4 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

What on Earth do the LL have to argue/bargain/debate with when they come to the table to argue for greater promotion/relegation to the SPFL?

I think he’s chatting about promotion/relegation between the LL and the leagues below.

I really hope so anyway, because the idea of 4 relegation spots in a 10 team league is fucking mental.