FairWeatherFan Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said: What is, or was, wrong with current or former reserve, youth or under-21 leagues? There was the big song and dance about a Reserve league replacing the Development League in the SPFL for 2018-19. They got 18 teams signed up for the top flight and then had enough left over for a second division. Then the 18 team league only played a 17 game season. While they fixed it to playing games on Mondays they let clubs play at training grounds or hires with very few playing at their home ground. They weren't attracting fans, the games didn't feel like they were meaningful due to the mix of venues, it might have been reserves but it's not like clubs operate with the same depth of experienced payers as they have done previously. It was known before the season ended multiple teams were pulling out. 2019-20 kicked off with 10 teams in the top reserve league and the 2nd division propped up by Lowland League clubs in it. A reserve league could actually work if they treated it seriously instead of what was by and large scheduled BDC friendlies. Edited May 10, 2021 by FairWeatherFan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: For me the system we have in place right now is broken between the ages of 18 to 21 years old. We know you think that. He's asking why you think that. The "party line" against loans as opposed to colt teams is so that the players can play together. That isn't something that benefits player development. It's something that only benefits the 'parent club'. If you want to develop genuinely top class players, putting them out of their comfort zone a little bit between 18-21 is exactly what you should be doing. Get them used to playing slightly different roles in slightly different systems with different players. They'll never be top class players if they can't adapt to that. No player is going to get near an OF first team if he can't adapt to going out on loan and thriving in a Dumbarton or QoS team between 18-21. Edited May 10, 2021 by Gordon EF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian44wood Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) Cs Strollers Edited May 10, 2021 by ian44wood 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said: For me the system we have in place right now is broken between the ages of 18 to 21 years old. Who broke it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 41 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: We know you think that. He's asking why you think that. The "party line" against loans as opposed to colt teams is so that the players can play together. That isn't something that benefits player development. It's something that only benefits the 'parent club'. If you want to develop genuinely top class players, putting them out of their comfort zone a little bit between 18-21 is exactly what you should be doing. Get them used to playing slightly different roles in slightly different systems with different players. They'll never be top class players if they can't adapt to that. No player is going to get near an OF first team if he can't adapt to going out on loan and thriving in a Dumbarton or QoS team between 18-21. I'm not against the loan market,for me if Celtic have a colt team in the LL they have a base to work from,players that do well for a season or less in the LL can then use the loan market and make their way up the leagues. The colts won't stop players like Ewan Henderson at Dunfermline finding their level or trying to get game time at a young age. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: I'm not against the loan market,for me if Celtic have a colt team in the LL they have a base to work from,players that do well for a season or less in the LL can then use the loan market and make their way up the leagues. The colts won't stop players like Ewan Henderson at Dunfermline finding their level or trying to get game time at a young age. I don't disagree. But the point is, what problem that exists right now, in terms of player development between 18-21, are the colts solving? Nobody has made any coherent case why an 18 year old player would benefit more from playing in the LL with an OF colt side than by playing on loan for a LL or L2 side. It's fine to say you want colts because it benefits the OF. But can we stop hiding behind this idea that it's going to help Scottish players develop better and is for the good of Scottish football? What about all the 18-21 year olds who don't play for the OF? The 'virtues' of the colt proposal is entirely to help the OF hoover up even more of the best young talent than they already do by dangling the supposed 'opportunity' to play in a colt side. They don't want them in the LL. They want them in the SPFL and see this as a stepping stone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 If the proposal was as simple as an arrangement with the OF for each LL club to play four friendlies against OF colt sides over the course of the season, in return for a wad of cash, then I would have no objection. However, if the proposal is for those results, or indeed the Colt teams themselves, to be included in any LL league table, then it's a big no from me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 Just now, Footballfirst said: If the proposal was as simple as an arrangement with the OF for each LL club to play four friendlies against OF colt sides over the course of the season, in return for a wad of cash, then I would have no objection. However, if the proposal is for those results, or indeed the Colt teams themselves, to be included in any LL league table, then it's a big no from me. Exactly this. I'd be totally fine with the LL putting aside dates in the diary for 'challenge' matches against OF colts. You could even run a 'parallel' league table including colt results if you really wanted. What the current proposal amounts to is whoring out your league for, at most, a couple of measly grand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS7 Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 4 hours ago, craigiemack said: I think shire will vote for it, especially if the money is decent. Absolute sell outs if so, really hope I'm wrong though and I need to say I have no information or knowledge on what way we will vote but if I had to take a guess I reckon we will. It will be very tight though, especially if clubs will get a decent chunk of money. If there was 50k forthcoming from each of Rangers and Celtic 100k/16 = 6.25K Tickets as well, 200 at £8, £3200 £10K Worth less than a game in the Scottish. Whereas, Rangers and Celtic could probably swallow the cost into some TV offering. I did my own guess and I thought, 5 clubs might vote against, with 12 for the proposal. I suspect it will be approved tonight - I hope I am wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: Nobody has made any coherent case why an 18 year old player would benefit more from playing in the LL with an OF colt side than by playing on loan for a LL or L2 side. The difference is having them in a professional environment having full control over their pathway. Not all the players will make the grade but will have the benefit and the best chance of not falling through the cracks. Celtic will know every player coming through from project brave up to 18 years old in the elite academies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 23 minutes ago, BS7 said: If there was 50k forthcoming from each of Rangers and Celtic 100k/16 = 6.25K Tickets as well, 200 at £8, £3200 £10K Worth less than a game in the Scottish. Whereas, Rangers and Celtic could probably swallow the cost into some TV offering. I did my own guess and I thought, 5 clubs might vote against, with 12 for the proposal. I suspect it will be approved tonight - I hope I am wrong. From the proposal paper put up by Caledonian Braves and what George Fraser said on his podcast appearance it's meant to be £50k total, each club paying in £25k. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS7 Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: From the proposal paper put up by Caledonian Braves and what George Fraser said on his podcast appearance it's meant to be £50k total, each club paying in £25k. So it would be £6K ish? I suspect there may be a few sweeteners available to get some clubs across the line tonight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: The difference is having them in a professional environment having full control over their pathway. I suspect we're not going anywhere with this discussion because, to me, this sentence is practically meaningless. And it's fairly indictive of the arguments in favour of the colts. They're politicians answers. Filled with words and phrases that people think sound good but actually mean nothing. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 Considering the opposition to Colts in SPFL, the Lowland League even entertaining this while at the same time trying to increase promotion / relegation To/From the SPFL seems incredibly misguided. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I suspect we're not going anywhere with this discussion because, to me, this sentence is practically meaningless. And it's fairly indictive of the arguments in favour of the colts. They're politicians answers. Filled with words and phrases that people think sound good but actually mean nothing. You think Celtic are the only ones benefiting from this idea it's not true,Celtic themselves are a stepping stone eg. Tierney. Celtic are just providing a platform for players to find their level within the game where ever it takes them in their careers. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I suspect we're not going anywhere with this discussion because, to me, this sentence is practically meaningless. And it's fairly indictive of the arguments in favour of the colts. They're politicians answers. Filled with words and phrases that people think sound good but actually mean nothing. Come on Gordon, keep up. The pathway, the control of the environment, the professionalism. We can't help it if you don't understand Willie's regurgitated word salad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, andrew21 said: 50k between 16 is 3k each. However George Fraser didn't give any indication that 50k would all be going to clubs. On the podcast a few days ago he was talking about it going "on innovation" and keeping the league finances secure. If you look at the previous breakdown, they're including the two extra home games to bump up the number beyond the "entry fee". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 Now Lowland League 2 being organised! I can see the “Junior football, what is the future?“ exploding soon I’m still waiting for my answer to the basic questions regarding the other colt/reserve teams in the pyramid system... Are they allowed to play at tier 5? Did they enter (or buy their way into) the system 2-3 tiers higher than the bottom tier? Either the question is being deliberately dodged by the cheerleaders of this proposal to protect their own agendas, or they haven’t got a clue. To think I have been a supporter of this podcast since the beginning and never had a bad word to say about them or their club... I’m done now. I’ll not be giving my opinion on the matter again as there’s clearly no point 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: You think Celtic are the only ones benefiting from this idea it's not true,Celtic themselves are a stepping stone eg. Tierney. Celtic are just providing a platform for players to find their level within the game where ever it takes them in their careers. It's not Celtic. It's the OF. My point is, I don't think Tierney would have been a better player by playing against Dalbeattie Star when he was 18. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: Come on Gordon, keep up. The pathway, the control of the environment, the professionalism. We can't help it if you don't understand Willie's regurgitated word salad. You didn't say "modern" or "progressive" so you obviously don't know what you're talking about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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