Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Benidorm]

The sooner these shitey mobs like BSC and Caledonian Braves bugger off into obscurity the better. Nae fans, nae stadium worth a f**k, just want a quick payday, which in itself has about the value of a two bob scratch card in the grand scheme.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Benidorm

[Gordon EF]

4 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

I have stated before that I have no problem with people expressing their views on this proposal .

My 'opposition' is more about the fact that this is a decision to be taken by the current LL teams only. It appears that they are being dictated to by supporters of teams outwith the LL.

This proposal, as it stands affects only current LL teams. Nobody else.

Any change at all after this proposal, is something entirely new. The ramifications of which would need to examined  & discussed by all those affected.

Well on that, myself, and most folk posting here, would disagree with you.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Gordon EF

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Shannon said:

Thought it was very pro Rangers & Celtic Colts podcast unfortunately and apart from when got in PG and Dak who gave great arguments against the Colts better than I ever could and explained really why the tier 6 and 7 clubs are really annoyed about this.

For years it's been Lowland Leagues magic number is 16 teams and they can't have extra promotion from leagues below because that's the rules and it's 16 teams. Now Lowland League want Rangers and Celtic Colts in and willing to change the rules that apparently couldn't be altered because they will give them £50,000 and can maybe get a few games on BBC Alba.

I am certainly not anti Old Firm but I know the amount of work that's went on at so many teams in West and East to get licenses and now Old Firm Colts will block the path to promotion as Lowland League can now have 18 teams but 2 has to be Rangers & Celtic Colts instead of top 2 in West & East this season coming with 2 down and give the pyramid proper ventilation plus have 4 clubs with likely big supports / ambitious clubs coming up to Lowland League.
 

My take on Reserves has been what exists. Not in the national leagues or the highest regional level. As once below that level with different regions there can be different needs and numbers to pad out league structures.

The podcast seems to me see more pros than cons. Sponsorship & TV deals that are plucked from thin air: that's fine, but if it really is a one year project what kind of deal are we talking about here?

Changing dates to maximise OF attendance, again a one year deal so that dries up and isn't encouraging home fans to attend. It's a change that doesn't have a long-term benefit.

2nd or 3rd place team can still contest the SPFL2 Play-off, you've made a mockery of your league even more than this season. And I would still imagine Club 42 would challenge the decision dragging things through the mud even more.

Getting the OF on side to support automatic promotion and relegation. The OF haven't been able to get Colts into the SPFL for 6-7 years now. That the OF are going to get into the SPFL2 next season, again they haven't been able to do that for 6-7 years because the lower league SPFL receive a fan backlash that stops it. That's not changing and as was pointed out on the podcast the OF have thrown more money at the SPFL to get what they want and it still hasn't worked.

Aberdeen were said to be the only other SPFL side considering a Colt side. Which is blatantly false considering ICT tried to enter the Highland, Stranraer are in the SoSFL, and it has near enough been confirmed Edinburgh City tried to enter the EoSFL this year. But if it really did boil down to just the OF wanting Colts then clearly Colts are not considered to be the solution to Scottish Football's youth development by the vast majority of stakeholders in the game. So it's time to try something else.

 

[Burnieman]

Don't forget ekfc, the lowland league is ran by individuals who have came from nowhere, clueless about non league football with no real feeling for what it is all about really pretending they know what they are doing.
Charlatans that have shafted and destroyed the 'pyramid' before it has even got going, it's beyond repair.

Ra Joonyurs are still deid Gassy.

[VodkaTap]

3 hours ago, bravehearts dad said:

I wonder if the proposal to admit the OF to the LL is rejected, will George Fraser have the good grace and decency to resign from his position in the Lowland League?

 

C’mon The Rose

Why would you expect him to do that ??

This is a proposal that will offer the LL clubs funds. Whether you like the proposal or not surely it is in the members interest to at least consider that ? Or maybe you want him to act like a dictator and make decisions on behalf of the member clubs instead ??

He can't win either way !!

[leomessi1984]

2 hours ago, Ironside8 said:

Don't forget ekfc, the lowland league is ran by individuals who have came from nowhere, clueless about non league football with no real feeling for what it is all about really pretending they know what they are doing.
Charlatans that have shafted and destroyed the 'pyramid' before it has even got going, it's beyond repair.

RIP the Joonyers Gasy! 

[Dundee Hibernian]

7 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

Sorry - i dont accept your statement at all.

I have previously said this on this matter 

This proposal, as it stands affects only current LL teams. Nobody else.

Any change at all after this proposal, is something entirely new. The ramifications of which would need to examined  & discussed by all those affected.

You are mixing up this current proposal with a potential new proposal for a further season

Without resorting to large text, I'll give you a simple example of how this proposal, if accepted, affects other clubs. Two SFA members argued they were wasting their time playing against other Scottish clubs in B fixtures, and excused themselves from the set up to play better quality sides, in their view. 

 

Much the same as their A fixture outfits, nobody really wanted them, so gradually they've worked downwards now flinging pennies at LL sides in the hope of a foothold in the league system. They've 'affected' clubs at their level by disrupting established development arrangements, while they're making an attempt to steal a march on every other club by shoehorning their B teams into the pyramid. 

 

Don't insult your own intelligence by arguing it doesn't affect any clubs other than those in the LL: publicity issued by the LL clubs, and so far the Ibrox side, is contradictory, even leaving aside the true reason the OF wish to gain a platform.

[jaggyness]

This principle, which you argue so strenuously against, is an already established one.
Stirling University in the EOS & Stranraer in the SOS.
So please don't try and claim this proposal is something different.

If rangers/celtic/anyone else want to apply for a spot in the lowest tier available. Although preferably get the whole idea of colts teams in anything other than a reserve league in the bin.

[VodkaTap]

59 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Without resorting to large text, I'll give you a simple example of how this proposal, if accepted, affects other clubs. Two SFA members argued they were wasting their time playing against other Scottish clubs in B fixtures, and excused themselves from the set up to play better quality sides, in their view. 

 

Much the same as their A fixture outfits, nobody really wanted them, so gradually they've worked downwards now flinging pennies at LL sides in the hope of a foothold in the league system. They've 'affected' clubs at their level by disrupting established development arrangements, while they're making an attempt to steal a march on every other club by shoehorning their B teams into the pyramid. 

 

Don't insult your own intelligence by arguing it doesn't affect any clubs other than those in the LL: publicity issued by the LL clubs, and so far the Ibrox side, is contradictory, even leaving aside the true reason the OF wish to gain a platform.

Patronising guff helps nobody - & certainly doesn't help your case.

The only clubs that can & will make any decision on this proposal are the current lowland leagues clubs. It really is as simple as that !!

[newcastle broon]

12 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

First of all - where do you get the idea, that, to quote you, I am "sticking up for this nonsense"?

I have not said a word on whether i think this proposal is good or bad.

The fact is that the proposal on the table for this coming season affects ONLY the current LL teams - nobody else.

To believe otherwise then you must be thinking that George Fraser is a liar when he says that.

Well every post I read on here you are certainly in favour of them getting in the LL. 

Shoving these colt teams is taking the piss oot of the pyramid when other clubs have spent fortunes to get where they are. So aye I'd say it affects every other club below tier 5.

I'd rather have 2 teams who have played their way up be it east west or south than have these 2 shoe horned in. What if other SPL clubs want in the LL as well? Where does it stop?

It's a money grabbing opportunity for sure for your club and the rest of the LL but you need to look at the long term picture here. The LL might just make further changes which wont suit your club.

Like you say the LL clubs will have their say and well done the Strollers in getting their tuppence worth in early.

 As I've said,there s no way this is  a one season wonder. I'm very much not convinced by it at all.If that makes you think I'm calling George a liar then so be it. 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by newcastle broon

[Marshmallo]

19 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Well every post I read on here you are certainly in favour of them getting in the LL. 

Shoving these colt teams is taking the piss oot of the pyramid when other clubs have spent fortunes to get where they are. So aye I'd say it affects every other club below tier 5.

I'd rather have 2 teams who have played their way up be it east west or south than have these 2 shoe horned in. What if other SPL clubs want in the LL as well? Where does it stop?

It's a money grabbing opportunity for sure for your club and the rest of the LL but you need to look at the long term picture here. The LL might just make further changes which wont suit your club.

Like you say the LL clubs will have their say and well done the Strollers in getting their tuppence worth in early.

 As I've said,there s no way this is  a one season wonder. I'm very much not convinced by it at all.If that makes you think I'm calling George a liar then so be it. 

 

Spot on

[VodkaTap]

15 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Well every post I read on here you are certainly in favour of them getting in the LL. 

Shoving these colt teams is taking the piss oot of the pyramid when other clubs have spent fortunes to get where they are. So aye I'd say it affects every other club below tier 5.

I'd rather have 2 teams who have played their way up be it east west or south than have these 2 shoe horned in. What if other SPL clubs want in the LL as well? Where does it stop?

It's a money grabbing opportunity for sure for your club and the rest of the LL but you need to look at the long term picture here. The LL might just make further changes which wont suit your club.

Like you say the LL clubs will have their say and well done the Strollers in getting their tuppence worth in early.

 As I've said,there s no way this is  a one season wonder. I'm very much not convinced by it at all.If that makes you think I'm calling George a liar then so be it. 

 

You make a bold statement about what you reckon I have said, why don't you quote me where I have expressed an opinion about whether the proposal is either good or bad.

I have been careful not to make one.

All I have been making the case for is that it is for the current lowland league to decide on the merits or not of this proposal.

This current one year proposal as it stands only affects the current LL clubs. That is the only point I am making.

 

[newcastle broon]

23 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

You make a bold statement about what you reckon I have said, why don't you quote me where I have expressed an opinion about whether the proposal is either good or bad.

I have been careful not to make one.

All I have been making the case for is that it is for the current lowland league to decide on the merits or not of this proposal.

This current one year proposal as it stands only affects the current LL clubs. That is the only point I am making.

 

Just read over your most recent posts. You are very much defending the LL here.

Yes the current teams will decide but I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture. What if the other 7 SPL South based teams want a bit of this cake,where would you stop? A 20+ LL?

Theyd get more respect in the lowest tier and working their way up. 

It's pure greed and arrogance by the LL for even contemplating it. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by newcastle broon

[Bundesliga Boy]

2 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Just read over your most recent posts. You are very much defending the LL here.

Yes the current teams will decide but I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture. What if the other 7 SPL South based teams want a bit of this cake,where would you stop? A 20+ LL?

Theyd get more respect in the lowest tier and working their way up. 

It's pure greed and arrogance by the LL for even contemplating it. 

Absolutely spot on!

I was previously completely taken in by George's apparent determination for fairness pertaining to the Lowland.  Last season he spoke of the underhand tactics of the SPFL regarding trying to get Brechin into the Lowland League - and how they were being threatened by the SPFL and faced possible sanctions.

He appeared to be a man of principle.

Yet listen to his interview on the Lowland Podcast.

At around 7 mins 20 mins secs, he is asked what would happen beyond the first year of the OF colts being in the Lowland and he responds 'that is down to Rangers and Celtic' then follows up with 'we have only committed to one year'. 

Yet he later in the interview alludes to it just being a one year deal.......if that is the case, and it is purely a one year deal, why say earlier that it is up to Rangers and Celtic what happens beyond that.  It's so disingenuous.

In fact it stinks to high heaven!  If the Old Firm hadn't proposed this, and say instead, Annan and Edinburgh City had contacted him to say that their young boys hadn't played in a year or so either, and needed to join a league for a year, but had no funds to pay an entry fee, there would be absolutely no discussion to be had.  He would be preaching about the league can only be a maximum of 16 clubs, as previously reported.

He is an absolute sell out.  Had he just been honest, and said - 'our member clubs are really struggling financially so for a one year deal only we are going to accept a £3k pay off per club' (£50k payment by the OF divided by the member clubs) then.....you might not agree with it, but you'd appreciate the honesty.

But instead it's the underhandedness of it all.  

And quite frankly he should have been held to far greater account than he was during this interview by the one or two fanboys - one of whom in particular I have always had the greatest respect for.

To be clear, I'm not as fundamentally opposed as others to OF Colts......but if it has to happen, then in the name of fairness and so called 'sporting integrity' then they absolutely have to start at the bottom of the rung and work their way up.  Besides, it's equal Conferences at the moment beyond the West Premier so would presumably take fewer years to achieve.

I actually can't put into words just how let down I feel by George Fraser.....a man I have always greatly championed until now.

Again.....for the hard of thinking.......this has nothing to do with the two clubs in question......it's the fact that any club should be parachuted in above all others purely because they can pay a premium..........and then George Fraser having the sheer audacity to comment that it's purely because 'their kids haven't played in a while'...........whereas presumably all other clubs in Scotland have had the luxury of playing their youngsters on a weekly basis!  Where to even begin with this???

Edited May 9, 2021 by Bundesliga Boy

[Spyro]

36 minutes ago, Bundesliga Boy said:

Absolutely spot on!

I was completely taken in by George's apparent determination for fairness pertaining to the Lowland.  George previously spoke about the underhand tactics of the SPFL regarding them trying to get Brechin into the Lowland etc - and how they were being threatened by the SPFL and faced possible sanctions.

He appeared to be a man of principle.

Yet listen to his interview on the Lowland Podcast.

At around 7 mins 20 mins secs, he is asked what would happen beyond the first year of the OF colts being in the Lowland and he responds 'that is down to Rangers and Celtic' then follows up with 'we have only committed to one year'. 

Yet he later in the interview alludes to it just being a one year deal.......if that is the case, and its purely a one year deal, why say earlier that it is up to Rangers and Celtic what happens beyond that.

This stinks to high heaven!  If the Old Firm hadn't proposed this, and say instead, Annan and Edinburgh City had contacted him to say that their young boys hadn't played in a year or so either, and needed to join a league for a year, but had no funds to pay an entry fee, there would be absolutely no discussion to be had.  He would be preaching about the league can only be a maximum of 16 clubs.

He has absolutely sold out the league.  Had he just been honest, and said - our member clubs are really struggling financially so for a one year deal only we are going to accept a £3k pay off per club (£50k payment by the OF divided by the member clubs) then.....you might not agree, but you'd appreciate the honestly.

It's the underhandness of it all.  

And quite frankly he should have been held to far greater account than he was during this interview by one or two fanboys - one of whom in particular I have always had great respect for.

To be clear, I'm not as fundamentally opposed as others to OF Colts......but if it has to happen, then in the name of fairness and so called 'sporting integrity' then they absolutely have to start at the bottom of the rung and work their way up.  Beisdes, it's equal Conferences at the moment beyond the West Premier so would presumably take fewer years to achieve.

I actually can't put into words how let down I feel by George Fraser.....a man I have always championed until now.

I wanted to write something myself once I had digested everything and the dust had settled around all this, but it would LITERALLY be word-for-word what you have written here, apart from I am/was “fundamentally opposed” to the idea.

Between what you’ve said above and the WoS Premiership fiasco, I honestly wouldn’t blame some clubs from breaking away... again!

I too have been a “cheerleader” for “the pyramid”, the Lowland League, it’s creators and the quirky nature of some of the new clubs involved.

I truly believed that we had all moved on and the “big, bad, sleazy seniors” tag could eventually be dropped for good and we could all move on TOGETHER as one.

Heartbroken is probably a little strong but I can’t think of another word to describe how I feel about all this... stabbed in the back? Taken for a mug? I don’t know... but after this statement and the subsequent podcast, my faith has gone. I can only imagine how the guys who have put their blood, sweat and tears into their clubs (and leagues) chasing this false dream are feeling right now. I can only say I’m sorry for being so naive 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Spyro

[vikingTON]

I understand that sentiment but it seems a bit defeatist: as if this is a fait accompli dropped on the rest of the league. The onus is on the majority of LL fans to kick up so much shite that George Fraser and his handful of fellow Big Hoose dazzled gimps will be overwhelmed by the backlash. It's not fun or easy to do, but similar campaigns managed to punt 'elect The Rangers into Division One' and about 17 of these risible Colt team plans within the SPFL into touch in the last decade, despite the similar PR massaging at the beginning making them all seem like a done deal. They weren't, and this isn't.  

Every diehard fan declaring their refusal to tolerate these diddy Colt teams in the league at Berwick, East Stirling or wherever else is worth far more to the boards of these clubs than the puny bribe on offer for 'one season' of competition involving bigot Colts. Get them hounded.

Edited May 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Shannon]

Also Rangers / Celtic Colts could have an over age keeper in goals going by answers given in podcast so one week a Lowland League team could be facing Jon McLaughlin / Andy Firth or even Alan McGregor as Rangers want to give them some minutes as not playing first team game for a few weeks then next week another team faces a 16/17 year old goalkeeper. When George mentioned exception for over age keeper I especially thought of Andy Firth & or Jon McLaughlin may come in if up against East Kilbride / Bonnyrigg to keep them sharp if not had game time. If you get relegated or fail with promotion due to the different goalkeepers or teams put out by Colts you wouldn't be happy at all.

Another example is nothing stopping a Nathan Patterson playing one week next season as under 21 as they want to give him game time as Tavernier keeps him out the team. Yeah there is no Kent and Eduoard as mentioned in podcast but still some top first team / fringe players at Rangers & Celtic who are under 21/20 who could end up making a massive difference and put a title chasing Lowland League team to the sword one week then a rival promotion chasing team comes up against only 16/17 year old academy prospects.

Also other weeks could be Glasgow Cup games that under age teams play in / friendlies with European teams / under 18 international weekends etc that would radically change the teams. Even European games themselves Rangers / Celtic have to name a set number of academy players in their team often a spot for the best under 20 players so Lowland League teams will face very different Colt teams at different times of the season.

[Bundesliga Boy]

13 minutes ago, Spyro said:

I wanted to write something myself once I had digested everything and the dust had settled around all this, but it would LITERALLY be word-for-word what you have written here, apart from I am/was “fundamentally opposed” to the idea.

Between what you’ve said above and the WoS Premiership fiasco, I honestly wouldn’t blame some clubs from breaking away... again!

I too have been a “cheerleader” for “the pyramid”, the Lowland League, it’s creators and the quirky nature of some of the new clubs involved.

I truly believed that we had all moved on and the “big, bad, sleazy seniors” tag could eventually be dropped for good and we could all move on TOGETHER as one.

Heartbroken is probably a little strong but I can’t think of another word to describe how I feel about all this... stabbed in the back? Taken for a mug? I don’t know... but after this statement and the subsequent podcast, my faith has gone. I can only imagine how the guys who have put their blood, sweat and tears into their clubs (and leagues) chasing this false dream are feeling right now. I can only say I’m sorry for being so naive 

So to venture off topic for two seconds, I'm a huge NFL fan (American Football) and potentially an even bigger College Football fan for many reasons including there being no money in the game, and the games being more exciting at collegiate level.  My support of both of these sports dates back over three decades.

This parallels to the non league.  This has been my true passion since I was a boy.......I'm now 42.........shhh don't tell anyone.

I'm just do disheartened by what's taking place right now.  Fair play to Civil Service for calling it out for exactly what it is.  When there's next to no money in the game......that should be what sets the league apart.......not to pander to the big guns and take whatever bung is going.

I'm just scunnered at what I've learned/heard over past few days.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Bundesliga Boy

[Spyro]

8 minutes ago, Bundesliga Boy said:

scunnered

There it is
I’m not too far behind you, old enough to understand what real competition is and when I’m having the wool pulled over my eyes.

I’d like to say there’s always the amateur leagues but that’s doing a disservice to clubs like CCS and the others who will be equally as appalled by this... just lost now.

9+ years of progress completely flushed down the pan in 2 announcements (WoS premier/conferences which I’m now having reservations about and now this), “surprisingly” enough just after they finally got every club in the area on board. The trust has gone

[Spyro]

27 minutes ago, virginton said:

despite the similar PR massaging at the beginning making them all seem like a done deal. They weren't, and this isn't.  

Fingers crossed mate but it’s sounding like decisions have already been made at the very top and these clubs will simply be outnumbered by the fakes