Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Jerry Macguire]

6 minutes ago, drs said:

I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "hatred" from what I actually posted.

I'd be anti this utterly stupid proposal if the 2 teams were Hearts and Hibs, Kilmarnock and St Mirren or Livingston and Hamilton.  The entire principle is nonsense.

Sorry drs my words are getting me in bother today. I wrongly assumed it was an old firm thing. The point I was trying to make is that these 2 teams are not as important as the 1 you support. If this does get voted through don’t let the one you love suffer.

[Jerry Macguire]

18 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Care to point out what aspect of anyones post is abusive? Calling you ignorant or having a conceited view isnt abuse, how do you function in the real world if thats what you consider abusive? Your post was genuinely one of the worst non political takes ive ever read on here and I pointed out quite methodically where you got it wrong. 
 

I’m sorry Rod abusive was the wrong word to use. Name calling isn’t very nice though and your comments I felt were just a bit over the top considering the manner in which I tried to convey my opinion.

[FairWeatherFan]

27 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

But what is striking about this is the amount of abuse and hatred this is generating.

Probably because it's nothing new and people's views on this are rather entrenched on it. What with years of these attempts by the OF under the guise of supporing Scottish Football by entering Colts into the pyramid in some fashion.

It's funny how Mark Warburton never saw any benefit 5 years ago. I wonder what Steven Gerrard's thoughts are.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-boss-mark-warburton-insists-9480621

Quote

But he is convinced some of the best young kids in the country playing their trade in the Lowland League would not benefit their careers and do nothing in the long run for the Scottish national team.

He said: “I care passionately about elite youth development and whatever structure they decide to put in place has got to give the elite young talent in Scotland the best possible chance of making it through to the first team and then on to successful international careers.

“If they are saying, go and play in the Lowland League first, then in one fell swoop that argument has gone.”

 

[The Moonster]

9 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sorry drs my words are getting me in bother today. I wrongly assumed it was an old firm thing. The point I was trying to make is that these 2 teams are not as important as the 1 you support. If this does get voted through don’t let the one you love suffer.

You see, fans of other clubs have explicitly told their chairman that if they vote shit like this through they would lose their support. It seems to me not enough Lowland League fans have done the same, or your chairman wouldn't be making a national embarrassment of himself right now for the sake of 3 grand in his back burner. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

I’m sorry Rod abusive was the wrong word to use. Name calling isn’t very nice though and your comments I felt were just a bit over the top considering the manner in which I tried to convey my opinion.

I dont think they were, you may not have intended to but your comments were really disrespectful to clubs lower in the pyramid. If this ‘colts’ *shudder* thing happens then it absolutely spits in the face of every argument which George Fraser made in respect of the formation of the pyramid and drove clubs like my own to join it. Again its not name calling, im reacting to the tone of your post, take a step back read it either from the perspective of a neutral or a Clydebank, Medda, Cumnock fan etc and see someone belittle your clubs progress and the quality of your team/facilities that you’ve burst yer back to develop. 
The whole point about football at this level is that its not about the money men or whatever, its about the clubs, the communities and the legacy and to see you championing the OF steamrollering through that for an absolute pittance and thinking that it will see more interest, sponsorship or fans through the gate despite just about every previous attempt failing miserably is just downright disappointing. 

[Jerry Macguire]

6 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Was a fan of a club without any facilities making a snidey point about clubs further down the pyramid improving their facilities respectful? 
Youre absolutely right in the latter post we definitely dont agree, but the whole point of a forum is discussion, I get youre probably feeling a bit under pressure because of your staggeringly awful take earlier and that’s ok, its human nature and if you dont want to engage then nae bother. 
I had a great deal of respect for you up until today as a supporter of a small team etc and im sorry but that has just eroded entirely. Same with the respect I had for George Fraser.  Good luck to your club should you allow the bigot brothers into your league, I know i’ll boycott any game involving BSC in future. 

The comment about facilities wasn’t intended to be snidey. I was trying to point out it had no bearing on this argument as it wasn’t an open invitation as was the case when the LL was started. The ground improvements are for clubs to improve themselves and gain membership to the SFA which I totally respect. Especially for a team like Clydebank who I’m delighted are once again part of the professional game. Clearly it’s up to you what games you go to but don’t let one idiot on PnB limit your choice of games to go to on a Saturday.

[FairWeatherFan]

I see Bonnyrigg, like Berwick are asking for their supporters views on it.

Edited May 6, 2021 by FairWeatherFan
Brechin instead of berwick originally.

[Jerry Macguire]

2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I dont think they were, you may not have intended to but your comments were really disrespectful to clubs lower in the pyramid. If this ‘colts’ *shudder* thing happens then it absolutely spits in the face of every argument which George Fraser made in respect of the formation of the pyramid and drove clubs like my own to join it. Again its not name calling, im reacting to the tone of your post, take a step back read it either from the perspective of a neutral or a Clydebank, Medda, Cumnock fan etc and see someone belittle your clubs progress and the quality of your team/facilities that you’ve burst yer back to develop. 
The whole point about football at this level is that its not about the money men or whatever, its about the clubs, the communities and the legacy and to see you championing the OF steamrollering through that for an absolute pittance and thinking that it will see more interest, sponsorship or fans through the gate despite just about every previous attempt failing miserably is just downright disappointing. 

As I posted elsewhere it was never my intention to belittle clubs investing in their grounds. It is brilliant to see the work being done I just couldn’t see the relevance to this particular argument. The uncomfortable truth is if we want to see a properly functioning pyramid we are going to need to play a very political game and maybe there are benefits to this we simply can’t see at the moment. Or you could be absolutely right and it’s a pile of shit and it should be thrown out, never to be considered again.

[Born To Run]

I understand a lot of the opposition to this.

However, I still don’t think it’s valid to boil this down to “it won’t just be for one year though”. You’re making assumptions based on supposition, not evidence. Would be easier if we knew what was contained in that planning document for 2022 mind you.

While we’re concentrating on facts, we all know that the Colts don’t attract big crowds in the cup. Financial benefits of this are focused on the “entry fee” paid by both OF clubs. I don’t expect to see more than a couple hundred max turn up in Alloa for example.

Essentially, the vote will come down to whether clubs feel like the £3k+ and potential raised profile (debateable in extent) is worth playing an extra four games vs talented youth sides while possibly alienating a section of their fanbases.

[FairWeatherFan]

https://berwickrangers.com/colts-proposal-statement/

Berwick Rangers breaking it down.

1. The proposal being made is for a one season deal, with no commitment or obligation to ongoing inclusion of Colts teams.
2. If successful, the proposal could not impact the promotion or relegation process. Both Colts sides would be exempt from promotion and relegation. Upon completion of the season, their respective positions in the final table would simply be removed.
3. Each Colts team would pay an entry fee of £25,000 to the league. The proposal indicates that this injection of an unconditional sum would be reinvested within the Lowland League.
4. One of the main anticipated benefits outlined by the proposal is the expected increase in exposure for the Lowland League, something that the league itself would look to harness to create new sponsorship deals which would in turn trickle down into further financial benefit for participating clubs.
5. The introduction of both Colts sides for one season would create two extra home games for each league club. This would provide additional direct revenue for Lowland League sides. 

So they are in the standings but not? Basically the OF's way to say how good their kids are and deserve a proper place in the pyramid then.

The LL haven't even confirmed the money would get split evenly between the LL clubs.

[Jerry Macguire]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

You see, fans of other clubs have explicitly told their chairman that if they vote shit like this through they would lose their support. It seems to me not enough Lowland League fans have done the same, or your chairman wouldn't be making a national embarrassment of himself right now for the sake of 3 grand in his back burner. 

Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong Moonster. I should change my mind and as BSCs only supporter threaten to boycott if they vote it through. Seriously though I don’t get boycotting your own club. It only hurts your club and it’s also worth pointing out George Ross is our club chairman, not George Fraser.

[VodkaTap]

This argument has two different aspects to it.

I can understand the comments from the supporters from the current SPFL teams who want nothing to do with the Colts idea.
They have their team who they only support – end of.

The big difference with supporters of teams at tier five and below is that they often have their big team as well as their local team.
Very often that big team is one of the old firm, most often called fans without the bus fare!
I have seen it, and I know them and I am sure most on here know those type of fans as well.

So most of the teams in lower leagues will already have these fans – will they stop coming along again, not likely.
Would they support the Colts inclusion, again, most likely.

So don’t try and tell me that it will be universally condemned – the facts don’t support it.

I am not saying anything about which side of the argument is right tho!

 

[energyzone]

The proposal states that the Lowland League will get 50k but it doesn't say that clubs will receive a full, equal share of this. I imagine the league will have other expenditures which will reduce the size of the eventual payment a club will get (if they even get one).

For me it's simple - I watch football at this level partly to get away from the nonsense and inequality at the top of the game in this country which is caused by the existence of the two clubs at the centre of this idea. It's a terrible idea and Lowland League club directors (many of whom will read this forum) should take heed of the deep feeling of resentment this has produced.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong Moonster. I should change my mind and as BSCs only supporter threaten to boycott if they vote it through. Seriously though I don’t get boycotting your own club. It only hurts your club and it’s also worth pointing out George Ross is our club chairman, not George Fraser.

The only positive about this is the £3K your club get. This pish about fans turning up/exposure is all lies which have already been exposed by the Tunnocks Cup. The pish about improving players is nonsense because any good ones will still be at Rangers/Celtic/out on loan higher up the pyramid. Why do you want that? What will you do with that £3K that is so vital? Doing this is most likely going to cause SPFL clubs to close the trapdoor too. Is that what you want?

I haven't once boycotted my club. I've made it very clear to numerous past chairmen that any vote for colt teams would result in my interest in football ending. I've got no intention of watching a club whose purpose has been reduced to "good game time for the proper wee footballer laddies at big clubs". Those words from me and my fellow fans were enough to convince my board not to vote for it, because it wasn't in their interest. 

Enjoy your friendlies against kids that will likely be out the game in a few years though, and don't spend your £3K all in the one shop. 

[Jerry Macguire]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

The only positive about this is the £3K your club get. This pish about fans turning up/exposure is all lies which have already been exposed by the Tunnocks Cup. The pish about improving players is nonsense because any good ones will still be at Rangers/Celtic/out on loan higher up the pyramid. Why do you want that? What will you do with that £3K that is so vital? Doing this is most likely going to cause SPFL clubs to close the trapdoor too. Is that what you want?

I haven't once boycotted my club. I've made it very clear to numerous past chairmen that any vote for colt teams would result in my interest in football ending. I've got no intention of watching a club whose purpose has been reduced to "good game time for the proper wee footballer laddies at big clubs". Those words from me and my fellow fans were enough to convince my board not to vote for it, because it wasn't in their interest. 

Enjoy your friendlies against kids that will likely be out the game in a few years though, and don't spend your £3K all in the one shop. 

You make very good points and I don't know what if any real benefits will come from this. I do know if its only £3k for each club then it will definitely be a waste of time. Sponsors, prize money if they can open those doors that's another thing entirely. I do think the standard of player they have in their B teams is far higher than many are giving them credit for though. Ultimately the clubs will decide and I'm happy with whatever they decide. Obviously I'm not as passionate about the whole idea as some.

[Gordon EF]

26 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

 

However, I still don’t think it’s valid to boil this down to “it won’t just be for one year though”. You’re making assumptions based on supposition, not evidence. Would be easier if we knew what was contained in that planning document for 2022 mind you.

It's not. Everyone who is against colts entering the league are against it full stop. It only being for one year is still shit idea. The "one year" thing has essentially been used so far as a sop against criticism of the colts. For example...

"This is a shit idea"

"It's only for one year though"

"Aye, right"

[FairWeatherFan]

Keep in mind the success story of the colts in the Challenge Cup. They're basically sponsoring themselves thanks to a handout starting next season . 

[Born To Run]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

It's not. Everyone who is against colts entering the league are against it full stop. It only being for one year is still shit idea. The "one year" thing has essentially been used so far as a sop against criticism of the colts. For example...

"This is a shit idea"

"It's only for one year though"

"Aye, right"

Absolutely fine with that point of view.

There seems to be a lot of people making hay with the “no chance this will only be one year” line though. That’s my point.

[Gordon EF]

Just now, Born To Run said:

Absolutely fine with that point of view.

There seems to be a lot of people making hay with the “no chance this will only be one year” line though. That’s my point.

Well aye but it's not the crux of the argument. People are only talking so much about it because you BSC supporters seem to be so determinedly delusional that making it permanent isn't the end goal here.

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

I think some of this needs clarified. Are points gained against the colts counted in all the other team's points totals? If Bonnyrigg pick up 75 points against actual LL clubs and 0 against the colts but East Kilbride pick up 70 against actual LL clubs and 6 against the colts, do East Kilbride finish above Bonnyrigg? If they do, how is the integrity of the league not compromised? By clubs "competing" against colt sides with absolutely nothing at stake in terms of results? And if not, why is this even being proposed? Why not just arrange a series of friendlies against any clubs who'll take their pittance?

This is very important, the difference between glorified friendlies and points being counted, both are bad but one is far worse than the other. 

If points vs colts count then it needs remembered that there’s a good chance the quality of side they’ll put out week to week could vary wildly.   

First team with a few injuries and got a hectic schedule,  most of the best youth players will be with the first team for a match, even if it’s to sit in the stand just incase.

Same thing if they arrange warm weather training for the u20s.

The teams playing them at those times will be up against an entire 11 u17, few subs and players out of position.

A few weeks later they could be playing 3/4 players with significant first team minutes.

Its mad to have teams playing in the league who’ll change about the strength of their team on a whim.