Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[drs]

16 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

 If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

How much exposure do you think 2 teams of Under 20 jobbers will generate? This isn't going to be teams full of players that everyone has heard of its going to be faceless teens, the majority of whom are destined to play at LL level after short stays at the likes of Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath.

I honestly cant think of one benefit this beings to ANYONE that isn't called Rangers or Celtic, clubs can take the money but how much are they going to lose in the long run from selling their sporting integrity for 30 pieces of silver? The Shire can vote against it but if this passes there is no way I'm going to another LL game or cup competition as they've (the LL) clearly shown they would rather pander to two specific clubs than look after the welfare of all the clubs underneath them in the pyramid. 

I'm really not surprised that BSC are shilling for this to happen.

Edited May 6, 2021 by drs
to clarify that its the LL and (maybe) not The Shire who are the bad guys here

[edinabear]

1 hour ago, Forest_Fifer said:

15 hours ago, edinabear said:

Still 3 x the average of a lot of the LL Teams crowds then 

Troll at large, DO NOT ENGAGE...

Well argued mate. The point is true

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

So what's in the Scottish Football Innovation paper that the same group of people are working on? The LL proposal only needs to be one season, since they want to implement their main ideas from 22-23.

8 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

Rangers and Celtic have been playing friendlies against non-league teams for years/decades. It doesn't translate into exposure, or sponsorship. It's one game and that's it. Even if they both bring a couple hundred. Which is about the most they seem to do in SPFL Challenge Cup games, that's an extra 23.5 people on a club's league average over 17 games. With them not actually playing in the league that also means none of the games will have promotion or relegation consequences. So it's not going to drive the neutral.

Clubs are also possibly going from 30 or 32 games up to 34 or36. Meaning more midweeks.

The only games likely to get exposure will be the two OF games against each other. That would amount to what they get from playing in the Glasgow Cup. That from what I recall recently has been negative due to crowd trouble.

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

 

Well the argument was about the integrity of the pyramid, which doesn't seem like it's going to be affected with the OF's positions in the table being removed at the end of the season*.

For clubs not in the league, there's no difference to a normal season. Of course if other clubs wanted to pay their £25k to join and then be able to actually compete in the league, that is a different matter as that would affect the integrity of the pyramid.

* see https://berwickrangers.com/colts-proposal-statement/

I think some of this needs clarified. Are points gained against the colts counted in all the other team's points totals? If Bonnyrigg pick up 75 points against actual LL clubs and 0 against the colts but East Kilbride pick up 70 against actual LL clubs and 6 against the colts, do East Kilbride finish above Bonnyrigg? If they do, how is the integrity of the league not compromised? By clubs "competing" against colt sides with absolutely nothing at stake in terms of results? And if not, why is this even being proposed? Why not just arrange a series of friendlies against any clubs who'll take their pittance?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Gordon EF

[VillanoXIV]

I am probably one of the most forgiving about Colts teams in the pyramid. Stranraer and Caley Braves do it in the SOS, as did QoS and Annan. Stirling Uni do the same in the EOS and Hibs and Berwick have done it in the past with little protest, same with the Highland.

I wouldn’t begrudge the likes of Motherwell or Hearts making up numbers in tier 6/7/8. Hell, if Thistle entered a side, I’d love to go watch us play the likes of Petershill, Ashfield and the like.

I do think there is a way for clubs to embrace their reserves sides playing in local competitions and make it worthwhile for everyone by advertising it well and bigging up the local connection, but I really don’t think the Old Firm are the ones to do that.

The OF don’t care about anyone except themselves and if you look at their involvement in the Challenge Cup and the derisory way they treat the Glasgow Cup, it’s clear that they don’t care about making them better and their fans don’t care about going to them.

They will not be there for just a year, they’ll bring no fans, and it’s clearly just a power grab trying to wedge Colts in so they can exert more influence over the lower league teams. Get them to f**k.

[Jerry Macguire]

6 minutes ago, Fife Journeyman said:

Why would it be for only one season?  what benefit are the colts teams going to get by playing basically friendlies against Lowland League teams some of who arent the greatest of standard and may be on the end of  a few drubbings. 

i get the part about exposure for the league etc  but there is an end game here, There is no way on earth this is for one season then they withdraw.

The proposal clearly states its for 1 season only. I'd imagine it's a stop gap until a more permanent solution can be found. Sorry I'm not great with conspiracy theories I can only speak about what is in front of me and it clearly states its for one season only.

[Jacky1990]

Do these c***s not get the hint?

No, no, a million times no. Unless they start at the actual bottom of the ladder this is a terrible idea. And has been a terrible idea for the last decade theyve tried this shite.

[Gordon EF]

18 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

Either the colts being a part of the LL affects the league or it doesn't. Either these are basically friendlies clubs play in 'off days' or they are games where points at are stake for LL clubs. It completely busts the integrity of the league to force clubs to play against colt sides with absolutely nothing at stake every single time they take to the field.

Quote

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

What's this really about? Cash, helping the OF, helping develop future Scotland internationals? What on Earth has stadia got to do with the development of players? Around half the clubs in the LL are at a lower standard than a number of clubs in lower tiers. What difference is playing VoL, Dalbeattie or some students going to make to the development of potentially international players? Absolutely none.

Quote

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

I wouldn't worry about too many of them turning up. Colt sides have been in the Challenge Cup for years and they bring very few supporters and there's basically no added benefit in terms of sponsorship, media attention or anything else. It's delusion to believe that OF colts will pack out grounds and put some kind of national spotlight on the LL.

 

 

[Big Fifer]

3 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

The proposal clearly states its for 1 season only. I'd imagine it's a stop gap until a more permanent solution can be found. Sorry I'm not great with conspiracy theories I can only speak about what is in front of me and it clearly states its for one season only.

Actually thinking it's for one season only is so unbelievably naive that there's no words in the English language can do it justice.

We have a permanent solution to the colts. It's what we have now. 

[Jerry Macguire]

8 minutes ago, drs said:

How much exposure do you think 2 teams of Under 20 jobbers will generate? This isn't going to be teams full of players that everyone has heard of its going to be faceless teens, the majority of whom are destined to play at LL level after short stays at the likes of Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath.

I honestly cant think of one benefit this beings to ANYONE that isn't called Rangers or Celtic, clubs can take the money but how much are they going to lose in the long run from selling their sporting integrity for 30 pieces of silver? The Shire can vote against it but if this passes there is no way I'm going to another LL game or cup competition as they've (the LL) clearly shown they would rather pander to two specific clubs than look after the welfare of all the clubs underneath them in the pyramid. 

I'm really not surprised that BSC are shilling for this to happen.

That's a real shame that your hatred for 2 clubs is more important to you than your love of 1. Everyone talks about clubs trying to improve their financial position as if its a bad thing. For most clubs though it's sponsorship and investors, not gate receipts that keep them going. It's not something unique to my club.

[Gordon EF]

12 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

The proposal clearly states its for 1 season only. I'd imagine it's a stop gap until a more permanent solution can be found. Sorry I'm not great with conspiracy theories I can only speak about what is in front of me and it clearly states its for one season only.

It's hardly some kind of convoluted conspiracy theory is it? It's very simply a case of we know that the OF and their apologists want colts permanently in the League. And logically, what possible benefit of this could the LL see for one season that wouldn't apply to it being permanent? The only logical conclusion is that the OF want this to be made permanent. George Fraser wants this to be permanent and they're trying to sweeten the pill by saying it's just for one season.

If you've caught someone trying to rob your house every week for the past year and then tell him he can go in and pick up a fiver as long as that's all he takes, it doesn't really take Sherlock Holmes to work out he's probably going to try and clean you out.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Gordon EF

[Dunning1874]

33 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sorry just my daft sense of humour no fall outs or arguments. Me and Spyro are all good. I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

So what are people really upset about?
Ah but clubs have spent money to gain SFA membership. So what, they’ve spent money improving their own facilities for their own benefit that doesn’t earn you a free pass. That opportunity came and went a long time ago. You earn your place by winning on the park.

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

You have to applaud the sheer brass neck of including that sentence in this post.

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

That's a real shame that your hatred for 2 clubs is more important to you than your love of 1. Everyone talks about clubs trying to improve their financial position as if its a bad thing. For most clubs though it's sponsorship and investors, not gate receipts that keep them going. It's not something unique to my club.

It's the point everyone keep missing. Clubs don't exist in isolation. Clubs need each other and they need a league structure that provides competition. It just doesn't work otherwise. You obviously don't agree but many people see allowing in colt sides as effectively destroying the competitive nature of league football. If you don't have that, what's the point?

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

It's the point everyone keep missing. Clubs don't exist in isolation. Clubs need each other and they need a league structure that provides competition. It just doesn't work otherwise. You obviously don't agree but many people see allowing in colt sides as effectively destroying the competitive nature of league football. If you don't have that, what's the point?

Wonders why it is only for one year

Goes looking for convoluted conspiracy theory material

Quote

It is clear from the discussions we have had that both Celtic and Rangers are looking for a league to put their ‘B’ teams into where they can develop as players.  Having been on the PGB sub group tasked with further developing the well-publicised ‘Scottish Football Innovation’ paper, a project which is still on-going and may well be implemented for season 22/23, it was absolutely clear to me that there is a major gap in the player pathway which would, if not addressed, impact a generation of our best young talent

 

[Spyro]

30 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sorry just my daft sense of humour no fall outs or arguments. Me and Spyro are all good. I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

So what are people really upset about?
Ah but clubs have spent money to gain SFA membership. So what, they’ve spent money improving their own facilities for their own benefit that doesn’t earn you a free pass. That opportunity came and went a long time ago. You earn your place by winning on the park.

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

You’ve still got this HORRIBLY wrong though

Nobody is buying this “one season” patter, nobody!

If it doesn’t affect the league standings, then why should LL teams bother or risk injuries?

Let’s not go into why half the LL teams are actually there, they still have/had a shred of dignity about them. If they can’t sustain themselves, drop out and restart... maybe find somewhere closer to home like Sco... erm, anywhere in Glasgow for example! Take the hit, hold your head up high and be remembered for the GOOD your team have brought to the game and rebuild with a better model.

If they were concerned about the “development of players”, they wouldn’t have ridiculed and pulled out of the reserve league setup, or hoovered up any talent away from other clubs so they actually had decent competition at their level.

As for sponsorship, this is theoretical. Maybe spend more time and effort looking for a true sponsor who will actually promote the league for what it is, rather than hanging on the coattails of these 2 @rsecheeks. There’s so much potential already there, it’s up to the leadership to promote that.

Baggage? Enough said... the reason we prefer to watch lower league games in this country.

Apart from that, fair play for giving your side of things but years of good work and good-will won’t be remembered if this is allowed to materialise. In fact, I hate to say that a lot of damage had already been done

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

23 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sorry just my daft sense of humour no fall outs or arguments. Me and Spyro are all good. I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

So what are people really upset about?
Ah but clubs have spent money to gain SFA membership. So what, they’ve spent money improving their own facilities for their own benefit that doesn’t earn you a free pass. That opportunity came and went a long time ago. You earn your place by winning on the park.

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

Im sorry, im sure youre a nice person and youre clearly passionate about your team but you need to get a grip. Your post is one of the most ignorant misguided posts ive ever read on this entire website. 
‘Its one season only’ get a grip. 
It is about sporting integrity, its everything about it, if OF want their *colt* teams (im sorry im shuddering even typing that word because its just americanisation pish) to play a lowland league team every week they can play a friendly on a tuesday night. Its a massive 2’s up to the integrity of the Scottish Football Pyramid. 
‘so what they’ve spent money upgrading facilities’ - yes money spent in good faith as the only method of progression into the pyramid apparently, but hey now you can just spend £25,000 and get in which is a damn sight less than most clubs have spent on facilities. How much have BSC spent on their stadium? 
‘Standard of opponent and stadia’ - gies piece, theres plenty clubs in the wosl who would absolutely spank your lot. Have you any idea how conceited that sounds? Also, go to Meadow, Holm Park, Buffs, Lok, Arthurlie, Neilston, Carluke, Newmains, Albert, anywhere in the WosL at any level of it and you have changing rooms, decent playing surface (vale of leven have a brilliant surface for one). Go to Ants and you’ll meet some of the most dedicated football people in the business, always looking to treat away teams brilliantly, Mckenna park is a great place to visit at any level of the game). Youre talking like its the premier league first teamers coming along and not a crowd of teenagers who didnt make the grade at Hamilton or another real academy. Even if it was the first team players, if they cant play football on a cold windy night at Winton Rovers (albeit in a cracking wee venue that they are rightly proud of) then they aren’t footballers. 
How does a B team that attracted about 100 fans ‘bring exposure’ utter nonsense. Even if Rangers or Celtic were at the same ballpark as Barcelona reserves its not even remotely the same thing. 
People like me and many others support our clubs partly because we detest what the old firm does to people, has done to Scottish football and the legacy THEY have created in the game. Scottish football is shite and at the highest level its shite because the OF outspent and ruined the competition using dodgy loans or pandering to bigotry with colourful strips that appealed the dregs of society, get that to f**k in any shape or form from local community clubs who are a fucking asset to their area, buses full of arseholes travelling all over Scotland to go watch the OF should be a source of national embarrassment. 
Old firm fans are nothing but a number to them, a source of income, Old firm youth programs are nothing but an attempt to snuff out competition, buying out all the promising youths and abandoning them because they are 2” shorter than the sport scientists say they need to be. To think the LL would be anything more than another disposable ‘thing’ to the OF to use as a wee toy is misguided at best and more likely selfless arrogance. 
Your post is in my view the biggest heel turn since Hulk Hogan. 

[Gordon EF]

Take Cole McKinnon, who's on loan at East Fife from Rangers right now. Can anyone explain to me how it would make him a better player to play a season for Rangers Colts in the LL, as opposed to playing for East Fife in L1?

[Jerry Macguire]

20 minutes ago, Big Fifer said:

Actually thinking it's for one season only is so unbelievably naive that there's no words in the English language can do it justice.

We have a permanent solution to the colts. It's what we have now. 

Perhaps it is naive but what is certain is to extend  beyond next season will require the member clubs to vote on it. If it doesn’t offer them any value as many are suggesting based on friendlies or playing in the chocolate biscuit cup, after 1 season they will know for certain if it was a worthwhile exercise.

[Jerry Macguire]

18 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

You have to applaud the sheer brass neck of including that sentence in this post.

Thank you.

[FairWeatherFan]

51 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

Just trying to find some facts on this. The Lowland League has had previous sponsorship. The Scottish Sun, Ferrari Packaging, and GeoSonic. I don't recall there ever being prize money. Do you know if the league has ever provided prize money?