Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Marshmallo]

Is there anything we can do as supporters of non Lowland League clubs to put some pressure on? I'm thinking along the lines of emails to clubs saying you'd attend games in the league next year if this was voted down but never hand over a penny to any of them if it gets voted through.

I've got a healthy interest in non league football and could attend a few games next year but there's zero chance of that if this nonsense passes.

[LongTimeLurker]

40 minutes ago, andrew21 said:

Do Bo'ness get a vote in this ?  Or is it like the EOS league where they have to wait until a year from when they entered to get a say.?

Think this issue is at the discretion of the board as a new rule allows them to boost membership to 18 as they see fit so no vote for Bo'ness.

http://slfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SLFL-Rules-Version-13.pdf

B1All clubs must, on the Completion Date,be licensed, full members ofthe Scottish FA. The maximum number of clubs will normallybe sixteen (16)but may be increased temporarily to a maximum of eighteen (18) at the sole discretion of the Board.

They may need Kelty to get promoted to be able to do this if that rule applies to the Old Firm colts scenario. 

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, andrew21 said:

Unfortunately most clubs will probably deal with those types of emails the same way that Gary Holt would.

Twitter can be a more effective way to be heard by using their preferred hashtags to push your message.

[The Moonster]

40 minutes ago, andrew21 said:

Nobody has said that isn't going to happen. George Fraser stated on a recent podcast that opening up the Lowland league should happen, would be a bit hypocritical if he is saying different things to different audiences. 

"As always league integrity and the importance of the pyramid will be paramount and this will be unaffected by this plan "

^The above part of Lowland league statement, if the Rangers and Celtic colts are just going to be playing friendly games as suggested it doesn't really affecting promotion  to and relegation from the Lowland league in anyway.

 

If Rangers and Celtic colts just want to play friendlies, why do they need to be part of the League? If the Lowland League have a spare team each week then they can take turns playing the colt teams in friendlies without parachuting them into the pyramid. Putting teams who can't be relegated or promoted into a league structure wipes out any integrity it has. 

[Forest_Fifer]

Some of these clubs have home crowds of less than 30 people. (Caledonian Braves, edin uni, Stirling uni, BSC) At the very minimum old firm fans would be bringing a couple of hundred and probably more depending on the occasion. And also I believe they are paying somesort of joining fee. 

I see you got fed up with trolling the L2 forum with your pish and have decded to drop down here.

[Forest_Fifer]

Still 3 x the average of a lot of the LL Teams crowds then 

Troll at large, DO NOT ENGAGE...

[Marten]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If Rangers and Celtic colts just want to play friendlies, why do they need to be part of the League? If the Lowland League have a spare team each week then they can take turns playing the colt teams in friendlies without parachuting them into the pyramid. Putting teams who can't be relegated or promoted into a league structure wipes out any integrity it has. 

Indeed, also these pretty much seem forced friendlies, i.e. no way to opt out. So if a team has a very busy schedule and don't feel like playing one of these games they can't just cancel. That will lead to farcical friendlies like Rangers U18 v Vale of Leithen reserves...

[FairWeatherFan]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The whole thing is pathetic. Some quotes from the OF when quitting the rebranded reserve league after quitting it after the first season.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/17611585.rangers-celtic-set-quit-spfl-reserve-league-bid-boost-academy-teams/

Anyone think that those things will change after a year of glorified friendlies against Lowland League teams?

Unsurprisingly Chris McCart's winning 6-0 or 7-0 the next week was a load of nonsense. Not really sure what they'd be expecting to learn from the LL.

Celtic's record in the 2018-19 Reserve League P 17 W 12 D 2 L 3

Celtic 3-0 Dunfermline

Hamilton 3-0 Celtic

Celtic 2-0 Aberdeen

Greenock Morton 3-1 Celtic

Celtic 4-0 Queen of the South

Dundee United 1-4 Celtic

Celtic 2-2 Hibernian

Partick Thistle 1-4 Celtic

Celtic 4-1 Falkirk

Kilmarnock 0-1 Celtic

Dundee 0-6 Celtic

Celtic 3-2 Heart of Midlothian

St Mirren 3-3 Celtic

Celtic 3-2 St Johnstone

Ross County 1-3 Celtic

Celtic 0-2 Rangers

Motherwell 1-3 Celtic

Rangers record in the 2018-19 Reserve League P 17 W 12 D 2 L 3

Queen of the South 1-2 Rangers

Rangers 5-1 St Mirren

Dundee 4-0 Rangers

Rangers 6-2 Motherwell

Aberdeen 0-3 Rangers

Rangers 5-0 Kilmarnock

Heart of Midlothian 2-1 Rangers

Rangers 1-2 Ross County

St Johnstone 1-1 Rangers

Dunfermline 1-1 Rangers

Rangers 5-0 Greenock Morton

Partick Thistle 2-5 Rangers

Rangers 2-1 Dundee United

Falkirk 1-3 Rangers

Rangers 3-2 Hibernian

Celtic 0-2 Rangers

Rangers 4-1 Hamilton

 

[Forest_Fifer]

This all kicked off with the OF wanting to take full part in the SPFL e.g. as teams 11 and 12 in SPFL2 with promotion and relegation etc. There might be an alternative which could work for everyone.
With the SPFL2 having10 clubs then the OF pair could be added on to them to play organised matches which do not count towards the League Tables. There'd be no promotion or relegation for them. They'd not play in any of the Cup competitions. If the pair turned out to be so good then they could be moved as a pair to Div.1 and the same done there with the usual promotion and relegation going on separately. 
The same idea could equally apply to the LL if the SPFL wouldn't take them in.
None of this would affect any Pyramid club in any way except that they'd be guaranteed two home "friendlies" against OF sides each season.
If, in due course, the OF pair had a change of heart about playing these matches then they could withdraw and it would make no difference at all to any Pyramid club - except loss of a couple of regular contacts with the "Big Two" clubs. There-again that's of little value so it wouldn't matter anyway - or does it?

If they were just glorified friendlies, then the L2 and L1 teams would just play their second strings. Nobody's going to risk injuries etc in meaningless games.

[Ginaro]

Must say I don't agree with those saying it will affect the integrity of the pyramid. IF (big if) it's only for one season AND their results aren't counted in the league then they're not really jumping ahead of tier 6 and it's just the clubs whoring themselves out for about £3k each, something which they should be honest about. Though there's still plenty of arguments against that.

However what does affect the pyramid is the league is still not bothering to add an extra relegation spot for next season.

34 minutes ago, Shannon said:

and having f**k all relegation for years absolutely stinks and should be called out.

I know you're against the proposal but let's stick to the facts please. The LL have relegated one club each season since they went to 16 clubs. They didn't relegate in the last two season but that was Covid-related and at least they promoted a club. There will be at least one club relegated next season (though of course it should be more).

31 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What's particularly galling about this announcement though is that they prefer to push an old firm colts team plan rather than invite applications from below from newly licensed clubs like Clydebank that missed out on promotion this year through no fault of their own.

The plan doesn't exist without two clubs paying the league £25k each, so there's no space for new clubs from tier 6 (unless they were offering the same money I suppose).

Edited May 6, 2021 by Ginaro

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Must say I don't agree with those saying it will affect the integrity of the pyramid. IF (big if) it's only for one season AND their results aren't counted in the league then they're not really jumping ahead of tier 6 and it's just the clubs whoring themselves out for about £3k each, something which they should be honest about. Though there's still plenty of arguments against that.

Seen the point on twitter being made about this paper that George Fraser and the OF have been working on that will start from the following season if they get their way. If this is a transitional idea to get to 22-23 don't you think their plan is more Colts not a one season wonder.

[Gordon EF]

16 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

The plan doesn't exist without two clubs paying the league £25k each, so there's no space for new clubs from tier 6 (unless they were offering the same money I suppose).

So you can buy a place in a League whose integrity isn't compromised?

[Gordon EF]

51 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Is there anything we can do as supporters of non Lowland League clubs to put some pressure on? I'm thinking along the lines of emails to clubs saying you'd attend games in the league next year if this was voted down but never hand over a penny to any of them if it gets voted through.

I've got a healthy interest in non league football and could attend a few games next year but there's zero chance of that if this nonsense passes.

No that I'll be sending the emails round but I've taken an interest in the pyramid over the past couple of years and was fully planning to catch as many LL games in and around Lothian as I could when grounds open back up. That can absolutely GTF if colts are in any way involved. Still might try and catch a few EoSFL games though.

[DiegoDiego]

I reckon the good folk of P&B could scrape together £25,001 to outbid one of the ugly sisters for a LL spot.

Top contributor gets first pick of what position to play and then downwards until the subs bench is filed.

[Jute]

Anyone who doesn’t think this will just be a stepping stone to the  Glasgow teams getting their Colts into the pyramid  permanently is delusional. I usually attend Lowland League games when I cannot attend a Dons game but this will stop if they go ahead with this. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jute

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

I reckon the good folk of P&B could scrape together £25,001 to outbid one of the ugly sisters for a LL spot.

Top contributor gets first pick of what position to play and then downwards until the subs bench is filed.

It'll be fairly embarrassing when we turn over Vale of Leithen.

Moonster nets a hat-trick in a 4-0 win as it's a fairly quiet afternoon for Marshmallo in goal.

[Jerry Macguire]

5 hours ago, geo87 said:

Jerry - I think you are a very good poster on here. Keen to read your thoughts on this instead of pointless arguments with suspected trolls / aliases deflecting from the issue at hand.

Sorry just my daft sense of humour no fall outs or arguments. Me and Spyro are all good. I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

So what are people really upset about?
Ah but clubs have spent money to gain SFA membership. So what, they’ve spent money improving their own facilities for their own benefit that doesn’t earn you a free pass. That opportunity came and went a long time ago. You earn your place by winning on the park.

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

[Dev]

56 minutes ago, Forest_Fifer said:

2 hours ago, Dev said:

This all kicked off with the OF wanting to take full part in the SPFL e.g. as teams 11 and 12 in SPFL2 with promotion and relegation etc. There might be an alternative which could work for everyone.
With the SPFL2 having10 clubs then the OF pair could be added on to them to play organised matches which do not count towards the League Tables. There'd be no promotion or relegation for them. They'd not play in any of the Cup competitions. If the pair turned out to be so good then they could be moved as a pair to Div.1 and the same done there with the usual promotion and relegation going on separately. 
The same idea could equally apply to the LL if the SPFL wouldn't take them in.
None of this would affect any Pyramid club in any way except that they'd be guaranteed two home "friendlies" against OF sides each season.
If, in due course, the OF pair had a change of heart about playing these matches then they could withdraw and it would make no difference at all to any Pyramid club - except loss of a couple of regular contacts with the "Big Two" clubs. There-again that's of little value so it wouldn't matter anyway - or does it?

If they were just glorified friendlies, then the L2 and L1 teams would just play their second strings. Nobody's going to risk injuries etc in meaningless games.

That's right but the clubs get guaranteed money for turning up from the OF. 

[Ginaro]

16 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Seen the point on twitter being made about this paper that George Fraser and the OF have been working on that will start from the following season if they get their way. If this is a transitional idea to get to 22-23 don't you think their plan is more Colts not a one season wonder.

The slippery slope of Colts in general is a valid argument, and something the LL would have to convince people that won't happen (if there is a such a way of doing so). What paper?

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

So you can buy a place in a League whose integrity isn't compromised?

Well the argument was about the integrity of the pyramid, which doesn't seem like it's going to be affected with the OF's positions in the table being removed at the end of the season*.

For clubs not in the league, there's no difference to a normal season. Of course if other clubs wanted to pay their £25k to join and then be able to actually compete in the league, that is a different matter as that would affect the integrity of the pyramid.

* see https://berwickrangers.com/colts-proposal-statement/

[Fife Journeyman]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sorry just my daft sense of humour no fall outs or arguments. Me and Spyro are all good. I resisted posting on this because I hadn’t actually seen the proposal, only the lowland league statement so I felt I couldn’t really give an opinion. I’ve now seen the proposal so here’s what I think.

Before I get to the proposal itself let’s consider some of the concerns or arguments against. Plenty of people are throwing about the word integrity. Sporting integrity, integrity of the pyramid. If you believe in such things none of these are actually impacted by this proposal whatsoever. No one has been blocked from earning promotion, relegation will still happen, it’s a one season only invitation and the member clubs will all get to vote on it without any recommendation from the board. 

So what are people really upset about?
Ah but clubs have spent money to gain SFA membership. So what, they’ve spent money improving their own facilities for their own benefit that doesn’t earn you a free pass. That opportunity came and went a long time ago. You earn your place by winning on the park.

Why should Rangers and Celtic be parachuted in at tier 5 they should be made to start at the bottom. 2 problems with that, the standard of opponent and stadia is not (for the most part) going to help the development of these young players. The other point people seem to be missing is they will not be part of the pyramid. This is a one season only proposal, an invitation if you like. The Colts teams have no long term ambitions to play in the Lowland League.

As for the proposal itself the single most important thing in it and something that has the potential to benefit the entire non SPFL pyramid isn’t the £50k the league will get or the potential bump in gates, it’s the exposure this will bring. Sponsorship opportunities, media interest etc. We may even get to a point where we can earn prize money from participating in the competitions such as the South Challenge Cup or the league itself.

I like many feel a little bit reluctant about Rangers and Celtic fans coming to our games in large numbers due to the potential baggage they bring. However having lived in Glasgow all my life and as someone with family and friends who support both clubs, by and large they’re just the same as the rest of us. Ultimately the decision on this rightly so will be made by the clubs themselves for me that’s the way it should be. Do I want it? If it helps improve the game at our level and beyond what have we got to lose? 

Why would it be for only one season?  what benefit are the colts teams going to get by playing basically friendlies against Lowland League teams some of who arent the greatest of standard and may be on the end of  a few drubbings. 

i get the part about exposure for the league etc  but there is an end game here, There is no way on earth this is for one season then they withdraw.