The All-New Polis Discussion Thread

[velo army]

7 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

For example crime recording rules, the scottish crime recording standards are the guidance for how crimes are recorded, how that works reduces the number of ‘recorded’ crimes which naturally reduces the stats. Difficult to explain, but no crime hasnt halved in 20 years.

Instances of domestic abuse certainly haven’t halved in recent years and that is where most of the most serious violence comes from. But even if you reduce crime by realistically 20% then cut numbers of police officers on the street by say 40% because you’ve got a statutory requirement to have a certain number of officers, then you have to fill roles of civilians who were let go or not replaced through natural wastage. So despite headline pledges of 1000 extra officers that claim actually negatively impacts the number of police officers on the street. 

Could you elaborate on how this is the case? 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 hour ago, velo army said:

Could you elaborate on how this is the case? 

Theres a lot more to it but its hard to express properly on a forum post how it all works. https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/emvh5hyz/scottish-crime-recording-standard-new.pdf
-483 pages of fun.

Pages 31-34 explain how the recording works in terms of multiple crimes being recorded as one. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Inanimate Carbon Rod

[Lex]

I remember reading somewhere that there were more criminals in the police per capita than there was in the general population.
This still the case?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

10 minutes ago, Lex said:

I remember reading somewhere that there were more criminals in the police per capita than there was in the general population.
This still the case?

I know a few who have some of the worst criminal records, aqua, b*witched, Eiffel 65 and that time Garth Brooks pretended he was emo. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

The police lobby seem to have become a lot more prominent and proactive since the force was centralised.

The idea of giving Scottish polis guns can be fired straight into the bin.

[pub car king]

32 minutes ago, Proposition Joe said:

The idea of giving Scottish polis guns can be fired straight into the bin

[scottsdad]

20 hours ago, Proposition Joe said:

The police lobby seem to have become a lot more prominent and proactive since the force was centralised.

The idea of giving Scottish polis guns can be fired straight into the bin.

The centralisation of the police authorities from the originals into Police Scotland was a bad idea to start with, and hasn't got any better over time.  Smaller forces were able to tailor policing needs to their local communities. The old Northern Constabulary had a huge, rural area to cover whereas, say, Lothian and Borders was by comparison more urban and suburban. These have different needs and challenges. 

I understood the cost-saving argument of centralising HR systems and the like but this merger went beyond that. Suddenly things were centralised and people working for the force were fielding questions about areas they had never heard of. This directly led to the deaths of John Yuill and Lamara Bell on the M9. 

Further, the merger plan was to take the largest police constabulary - Strathclyde - and use that as a template for the new force. Except Strathclyde was generally seen as the worst of all the constabularies. The brother of a friend of mine tried to join Central Scotland Police in the late 90s and failed to get in - failed the entrance and failed the medical. Strathclyde snapped him up. 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

 

I understood the cost-saving argument of centralising HR systems and the like but this merger went beyond that. Suddenly things were centralised and people working for the force were fielding questions about areas they had never heard of. This directly led to the deaths of John Yuill and Lamara Bell on the M9. 

You think someone in Midlothian had never heard of the M9? Evidence at the trial said the problem was insufficient staffing, not unfamiliarity with areas.

I don't take issue with anything else you said but from what I read the problem was that the call handler didn't put the report on the system at all. 

Also, the prosecution didn't allege that the police failures contributed to the death of John Yuill.

[GordonS]

23 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Theres a lot more to it but its hard to express properly on a forum post how it all works. https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/emvh5hyz/scottish-crime-recording-standard-new.pdf
-483 pages of fun.

Pages 31-34 explain how the recording works in terms of multiple crimes being recorded as one. 

If your suggestion were right then surveying the public on their direct experience of crime would show a different picture from the crime recording statistics. But the annual Scottish Crime and Justice Survey shows pretty much exactly the same reduction in crime as the police stats.

The fall in crime is definitely real and not an effect of data collection - and it includes violent crime too, though that has started to creep back up.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-crime-justice-survey-2019-20-main-findings/pages/3/ 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

14 minutes ago, GordonS said:

If your suggestion were right then surveying the public on their direct experience of crime would show a different picture from the crime recording statistics. But the annual Scottish Crime and Justice Survey shows pretty much exactly the same reduction in crime as the police stats.

The fall in crime is definitely real and not an effect of data collection - and it includes violent crime too, though that has started to creep back up.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-crime-justice-survey-2019-20-main-findings/pages/3/ 

You cant honestly accept that this is a non-artificial figure given most people have spent the last 18months in the house? If these wonderful figures keep up over 18mths post lockdown id withdraw my opposition. Also very interested to know the socio economic breakdown of responses to thus survey. 

[supermik]

2 hours ago, scottsdad said:

This directly led to the deaths of John Yuill and Lamara Bell on the M9. 

 

Sorry mate but there was only one thing to blame and it was not the police or the call handlers.

[Granny Danger]

Centralisation of the police under Police Scotland was a very bad decision and was, I believe, all about trying to save money.

There should be significant pressure but on a post-Independence government to reverse that move and decentralise, preferably as part of a root and branch review of police practices.

 

[Detournement]

3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

You cant honestly accept that this is a non-artificial figure given most people have spent the last 18months in the house? If these wonderful figures keep up over 18mths post lockdown id withdraw my opposition. Also very interested to know the socio economic breakdown of responses to thus survey. 

There is undoubtedly far less crime than 20 years ago.

There are far fewer youths hanging around streets causing havoc and the night time economy has been decimated so there is less trouble with revellers. It's much safer to be out at night now and parks and open spaces are full of dog walkers, cyclists and runners rather than being the preserve of a young team.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Detournement

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

You cant honestly accept that this is a non-artificial figure given most people have spent the last 18months in the house? If these wonderful figures keep up over 18mths post lockdown id withdraw my opposition. Also very interested to know the socio economic breakdown of responses to thus survey. 

You do realise that survey is entirely pre-Covid, right? Please tell me you at least looked before replying.

The evidence is that crime has fallen overall since the first lockdown, though crimes in the home may have increased because people are spending more time at home. It doesn't make the survey "artificial"; and more to the point, you can't ignore the long-term trend - which is the same as the trend in the police stats.

The sample size is almost 5,600 face-to-face interviews from randomly generated postcodes and the responses are weighted for socio-economic groups.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2021/02/scottish-crime-and-justice-survey-2019-20-supplementary-documents/documents/scjs-2019-20---technical-report/scjs-2019-20---technical-report/govscot%3Adocument/2019_20%2BSCJS%2B-%2BTechnical%2BReport2.pdf 

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, supermik said:

Sorry mate but there was only one thing to blame and it was not the police or the call handlers.

Lamara Bell would probably have lived if the call handler had put the report on the system. So there's not only one thing to blame, there's at least two.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

You do realise that survey is entirely pre-Covid, right? Please tell me you at least looked before replying.

The evidence is that crime has fallen overall since the first lockdown, though crimes in the home may have increased because people are spending more time at home. It doesn't make the survey "artificial"; and more to the point, you can't ignore the long-term trend - which is the same as the trend in the police stats.

The sample size is almost 5,600 face-to-face interviews from randomly generated postcodes and the responses are weighted for socio-economic groups.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2021/02/scottish-crime-and-justice-survey-2019-20-supplementary-documents/documents/scjs-2019-20---technical-report/scjs-2019-20---technical-report/govscot%3Adocument/2019_20%2BSCJS%2B-%2BTechnical%2BReport2.pdf 

No i thought that was a survey i was aware of the interviews happening for in june. 

[supermik]

18 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Lamara Bell would probably have lived if the call handler had put the report on the system. So there's not only one thing to blame, there's at least two.

Irrespective of whether the report was logged or not, she chose to get in a car knowing that the driver had no licence or insurance. Would there be so much sympathy for them if the car had hit and killed a passerby?

[GordonS]

36 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

No i thought that was a survey i was aware of the interviews happening for in june. 

Ah ok. It takes a long time for official statistics to get published.

13 minutes ago, supermik said:

Irrespective of whether the report was logged or not, she chose to get in a car knowing that the driver had no licence or insurance. Would there be so much sympathy for them if the car had hit and killed a passerby?

It's ok to leave someone to die in agony slowly over the course of several days because they were a passenger in a car driven by someone with no licence or insurance? 

The call handler didn't know anything about the victims when he didn't log the call - and it shouldn't be relevant anyway. These are the kinds of mistakes that are made when systems don't work properly. 

[supermik]

Fly with the crows etc..

Insert partridge shrug gif here

[charlie king mvp]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Ah ok. It takes a long time for official statistics to get published.

It's ok to leave someone to die in agony slowly over the course of several days because they were a passenger in a car driven by someone with no licence or insurance? 

The call handler didn't know anything about the victims when he didn't log the call - and it shouldn't be relevant anyway. These are the kinds of mistakes that are made when systems don't work properly. 

It wasn’t a call handler though and that’s where the problem was. It was a police officer who was in on overtime.  A call handler is a specific role done by someone with a lot of training.  Police Scotland’s big problem is they think that if you put a police hat on someone they can do anything. The person taking the call didn’t know what they were doing.