Is Football as a sport unfairly targeted?

[AJF]

This may seem like a bit of a vague question, but for context, I’m asking on the back of an article I read this morning.

Within this article appears the quote “it’s important to understand the historic connection surrounding Scottish football and domestic violence against women”

I am not against having this debate, and I don’t doubt that there is a connection there, however this seems to be conflating two different issues. The murder of Sarah Everard was not domestic violence (as far as we know). She was not in a relationship with her murderer (as far as we know) so why is her murder being linked to domestic violence and football?

The question is not specific to this tragic murder, but it was useful to use as context. I’d like to know if you think in general, football is subjected to unfair criticism.

Edited March 13, 2021 by AJF

[Killiefan]

Ask a wife of an old firm supporter 

[AJF]

2 minutes ago, Killiefan said:

Ask a wife of an old firm supporter 

Well, if there are any on here, I’d be interested to hear their view.

[coprolite]

It's not not an issue though is it? 

It's not the exact same thing but it is violence against women (mainly). 

Not quite sure how ribbons are going to help though. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by coprolite

[AJF]

4 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It's not not an issue though is it? 

It's not the exact same thing but it is violence against women (mainly). 

Not quite sure how ribbons are going to help though. 

I agree it is an issue, I don’t deny it. I just question the link between Sarah Everard’s murder and football. In my opinion, it is not a fair criticism to suggest this murder can be linked to domestic violence from football fans.

My own opinion is people are right to target football at times but often take it too far - this being one of those occasions.

[SANTAN]

People are right to criticise football but it's often disproportionately treated and therefore is unfairly treated. 

It's also very reductive and dismissive when discussing domestic violence to view it as an Old Firm issue. 

[Killiefan]

11 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

People are right to criticise football but it's often disproportionately treated and therefore is unfairly treated. 

It's also very reductive and dismissive when discussing domestic violence to view it as an Old Firm issue. 

Cases of domestic violence rise after an old firm game.

[G51]

This isn’t something I’ve looked into in any great detail, so I won’t pretend to be an expert on it.

My initial thoughts are that the relationship between football and domestic violence is likely correlation without causation. I don’t see how football could result in making men more likely to become domestic abusers. I could, however, see why during football matches, particularly Old Firms, the statistics show that there is a rise in domestic violence. I would wager however that this is little to do with the outcome of the match, and more to do with the amount of alcohol consumed. 

So following this line of thought, I don’t think targeting football is going to be particularly fruitful. I think a much more effective approach would be tackling our nations awful relationship with alcohol abuse, and the way that alcohol is at the centre of nearly every social event we have.

If someone comes along and tells me “No, you’re wrong, that’s not what the research shows and here’s why” then I’ll hold my hands up and say fair enough. Ultimately, we all have to commit to making this world a better place, and in particular a better place for women. We can all take individual responsibility for this.

[RandomGuy.]

15 minutes ago, Killiefan said:

Cases of domestic violence rise after an old firm game.

It also rises around the time of the 6 Nations, Wales had a report saying both unprovoked attacks in the street, and domestic violence, rose over 80% during that tournament in 2010.

Strange how often its ignored tbh, but football fans are clearly seen as easier targets than rugby fans. Wonder why...

Edited March 13, 2021 by RandomGuy.

[DukDukGoose]

55 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It's not not an issue though is it? 

It's not the exact same thing but it is violence against women (mainly). 

Not quite sure how ribbons are going to help though. 

I guess they hope it drives discussion.

16 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

It also rises around the time of the 6 Nations, Wales had a report saying both unprovoked attacks in the street, and domestic violence, rose over 80% during that tournament in 2010.

Strange how often its ignored tbh, but football fans are clearly seen as easier targets than rugby fans. Wonder why...

Rugby is the national sport of Wales. You ignore this point every time you use some sort of violence  in Wales which is linked to rugby as an example.

[Ric]

Football is tribal and brings out the worst in some people, now note I say "some" not "all". We have all experienced it, regardless of team, where the frustration and lack of control over the proceedings on the pitch leads to some flipping out, destroying things (seats, toilets, etc) and fighting with opposition fans or even their own fanbase. This then extends to them within their home, either returning from an altercation outside of it, or from them simmering watching the game from a distance in an armchair. Anyone who thinks that is an unfair statement is either wearing rose tinted glasses or simply doesn't attend games.

What I would say is that football is a catalysing factor, not the source. It isn't football causing the abuse, an abuser would still be an abuser regardless of whether they followed football. People who have this disposition would get abusive if someone cuts them off on the road, or if they feel they are not treated correctly in a shop. The difference, of course, is alcohol being consumed when watching football, whereas it's unlikely to be while driving or going to the shops, in terms of the tribal nature some may have disdain for you for supporting an opposition team but are unlikely to have the same feelings if you shop in Asda while they shop in Tesco.

Overall there is a legacy of toxic masculinity in Scotland, which thankfully seems to be changing and has been for quite a few decades now, and it is entirely true that violence from males overwhelmingly tends to be aimed at other men, but domestic violence is one sector where those figures are reversed, it is also something that is notably under reported.

The person who is making the claim is Chloe Whyte, if you read the planet radio piece, and it seems Radio Clyde have specifically picked up one line of her fairly lengthy comment and promoted it in order to generate rage porn. It's really, really poor journalism on their behalf, and they know exactly what they are doing. I think Whyte was wrong to directly link the Everard case to a somewhat debatable link (there are many studies that fall down on either side of the debate) but Radio Clyde should be ashamed at their very low level of journlism.

To answer the actual question posed, is football unfairly targetted? It's difficult to answer because @AJF you've not been specific. I guess you mean in regard to domestic violence, but your query could be a broader point. If, however, it is about domestic violence, then no, I don't think it is, but as I wrote in my first paragraph, it's a gateway not a cause. Domestic violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men, exasperated by toxic masculinity and catalysed by alcohol. It is fair to say that football also checks those boxes, not exclusively of course, but when you consider the cross over then it's fair to use that sector of society to highlight and target the reduction of domestic violence.

However, let me re-iterate the shameful, amateurish and utterly shoddy attempt by Radio Clyde to try and promote one, perhaps debatable, quote by someone addressing an issue very much in the modern zeitgeist and one that is extremely raw at this very time. If they were genuinely a respectable journalistic outfit they would focus on the real issue, and that is safety  of women in general, and not try and get old firm gammon foaming at the mouth for clicks.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ric

[Derry Alli]

2 minutes ago, Ric said:

Football is tribal 

No it isn't. It's a fucking game. 

[DukDukGoose]

1 minute ago, Mr. Alli said:

No it isn't. It's a fucking game. 

You support two teams though.

[Ric]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

No it isn't. It's a fucking game. 

Unless you are trying to be funny, that's a pretty pointless addition to the debate.

[AJF]

16 minutes ago, Ric said:

Football is tribal and brings out the worst in some people, now note I say "some" not "all". We have all experienced it, regardless of team, where the frustration and lack of control over the proceedings on the pitch leads to some flipping out, destroying things (seats, toilets, etc) and fighting with opposition fans or even their own fanbase. This then extends to them within their home, either returning from an altercation outside of it, or from them simmering watching the game from a distance in an armchair. Anyone who thinks that is an unfair statement is either wearing rose tinted glasses or simply doesn't attend games.

What I would say is that football is a catalysing factor, not the source. It isn't football causing the abuse, it's an abuser would still be an abuser regardless of whether they followed football. People who have this disposition would get abusive if someone cuts them off on the road, or if they feel they are not treated correctly in a shop. The difference, of course, is alcohol being consumed when watching football, whereas it's unlikely to be while driving or going to the shops and the tribal nature of football, some may have disdain for you for supporting an opposition team but are unlikely to have the same feelings if you shop in Asda while they shop in Tesco.

Overall there is a legacy of toxic masculinity in Scotland, which thankfully seems to be changing and has been for quite a few decades now, and it is entirely true that violence from males overwhelmingly tends to be aimed at other men, but domestic violence is one sector where those figures are reversed, it is also something that is notably under reported.

The person who is making the claim is Chloe Whyte, if you read the planet radio piece, and it seems Radio Clyde have specifically picked up one line of her fairly lengthy comment and promoted it in order to generate rage porn. It's really, really poor journalism on their behalf, and they know exactly what they are doing. I think Whyte was wrong to directly link the Everard case to a somewhat debatable link (there are many studies that fall down on either side of the debate) but Radio Clyde should be ashamed at their very low level of journlism.

To answer the actual question posed, is football unfairly targetted? It's difficult to answer because @AJF you've not been specific. I guess you mean in regard to domestic violence, but your query could be a broader point. If, however, it is about domestic violence, then no, I don't think it is, but as I wrote in my first paragraph, it's a gateway not a cause. Domestic violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men, exasperated by toxic masculinity and catalysed by alcohol. It is fair to say that football also checks those boxes, not exclusively of course, but when you consider the cross over then it's fair to use that sector of society to highlight and target the reduction of domestic violence.

However, let me re-iterate the shameful, amateurish and utterly shoddy attempt by Radio Clyde to try and promote one, perhaps debatable, quote by someone addressing an issue very much in the modern zeitgeist and one that is extremely raw at this very time. If they were genuinely a respectable journalistic outfit they would focus on the real issue, and that is safety  of women in general, and not try and get old firm gammon foaming at the mouth for clicks.

It was intended to be considered as a broader point, I just so happened to use this focus on domestic abuse as an example. Sorry, I could’ve made it clearer.

[Ric]

7 minutes ago, AJF said:

It was intended to be considered as a broader point, I just so happened to use this focus on domestic abuse as an example. Sorry, I could’ve made it clearer.

It's fine, the inclusion of the tweet hinted that was the specific topic.

Just for reference, and as it seems to be discussed by a few on here, the "domestic violence/OF game" link is open to interpretation. For those interested, here are two academic reports which effectively come down on either side of that debate. The second one will need an OpenAthens account to view the full report but it's been summarised in quite a few media outlets.

There is some sort of link: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244013504207

There isn't a link: https://doi.org/10.1332/239868018X15155986580769

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ric

[DukDukGoose]

1 minute ago, AJF said:

It was intended to be considered as a broader point, I just so happened to use this focus on domestic abuse as an example. Sorry, I could’ve made it clearer.

I find it quite interesting that you're asking if football fans are treated unfairly in general after the events of last weekend.

You seemed to be in favour of the alcohol ban being lifted. Several people commented that Rangers and Celtic fan behaviour under the influence of alcohol would likely see that put in the bin before it's even given serious consdieration. You disagreed.

Less than a month later fans of your club destroyed memorial benches, were firing fireworks from the middle of crowded areas, pissing and shiting themselves or masturbating in full view of the general public. This is in celebration. We're then told by prominent members of the Scottish football media that it's out of order but it's also understandable. Is it? If Scotland were to win the Rugby World Cup would we see scene anywhere near on par with that?

Unfortunately the game of football attracts the dregs of society. It's always going to be viewed this way until they find something else to follow.

 

[Dons_1988]

One of the best things about football is the ‘edge’ that comes with it. It creates the atmosphere in grounds that others just don’t because it does mean more to people than just a sporting event.

Problem is that football is always pushing against the very limits of social acceptability. Society accepts this edge that comes with football to a point. Whether we like it or not there’s a demographic of young men in particular that see it as a vehicle to channel their excess testosterone in a semi acceptable way. 

The authorities are always going to push back against this because if they don’t it will absolutely cross a line. There’s absolutely no doubt this is an issue football contends with more than any other sport. 

I don’t think a tenuous link to domestic violence is a particularly great example but I wouldn’t say the extra attention football gets for anti social behaviour is unfair. 

 

[DukDukGoose]

8 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

One of the best things about football is the ‘edge’ that comes with it. It creates the atmosphere in grounds that others just don’t because it does mean more to people than just a sporting event.

Problem is that football is always pushing against the very limits of social acceptability. Society accepts this edge that comes with football to a point. Whether we like it or not there’s a demographic of young men in particular that see it as a vehicle to channel their excess testosterone in a semi acceptable way. 

The authorities are always going to push back against this because if they don’t it will absolutely cross a line. There’s absolutely no doubt this is an issue football contends with more than any other sport. 

I don’t think a tenuous link to domestic violence is a particularly great example but I wouldn’t say the extra attention football gets for anti social behaviour is unfair. 

 

We could go on to AFC chat and find out how they feel about bans on the Ibrox disaster song or about Gerrard being an ***********. 

The result would be pretty grim.

[Bose]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

This isn’t something I’ve looked into in any great detail, so I won’t pretend to be an expert on it.

My initial thoughts are that the relationship between football and domestic violence is likely correlation without causation. I don’t see how football could result in making men more likely to become domestic abusers. I could, however, see why during football matches, particularly Old Firms, the statistics show that there is a rise in domestic violence. I would wager however that this is little to do with the outcome of the match, and more to do with the amount of alcohol consumed. 

So following this line of thought, I don’t think targeting football is going to be particularly fruitful. I think a much more effective approach would be tackling our nations awful relationship with alcohol abuse, and the way that alcohol is at the centre of nearly every social event we have.

If someone comes along and tells me “No, you’re wrong, that’s not what the research shows and here’s why” then I’ll hold my hands up and say fair enough. Ultimately, we all have to commit to making this world a better place, and in particular a better place for women. We can all take individual responsibility for this.

I used to work in criminal justice and there is a huge spike after old firm games. It’s such a big spike it’s difficult to argue against it as a causative factor, although as previously stated an abuser will find an excuse no matter what.  
 

There are pissed people in Scotland 365 days a year yet there is a spike after old firm games. I am not saying alcohol isn’t a factor but it’s the only game that has such a huge rise in domestic violence after it

Edited March 13, 2021 by Bose