Sarah Everard

[Shotgun]

Well, I for one am relieved to hear the reason the public are angry is just down to those nasty fibbers in the media.

Move along now.

[ICTChris]

Reports today that Couzens turned up at a colleagues tenth anniversary party with an escort.  Apparently an escort also showed up at his police station saying he owed her money, he had to go to a cash machine to pay her.

You just never know about people.  He seemed like such a good egg, turns out he was a bad apple.

[The Moonster]

On 01/10/2021 at 16:02, Michael W said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-58762029.amp

Jesus Christ. 

Does he really think that Sarah Everard should've become uncooperative and added "resisting arrest" to whatever supposed breach of Covid rules Couzan was arresting her for?

Is there any reason this article refers to the polis guy as a Conservative? Seems an unnecessary piece of info, even if it does confirm what everyone was probably thinking. 

On 01/10/2021 at 20:42, Mark Connolly said:

Fully expecting another senior copper to come out tomorrow and tell us women are safer if they just stay in the fucking kitchen.

It's not even just tone deaf, it's total closing of ranks in utter desperation because they know they have made a complete c**t of the whole thing

Precisely. Cressida Dick knows fine well that there is f**k all anyone can do when in the situation Everard was without making things worse for themselves. She knows fine well that if Everard had tried to phone anyone or flag down a bus that Couzens would've reacted to it, probably not in a way that sees Everard walk away unscathed. All this "flag down a bus" shit is just her arse collapsing when she's been put on the spot. 

On 01/10/2021 at 21:43, plodofthenorth said:

That being said, I do find it difficult to read that, purely because of the job I do, I am automatically labelled an acab or worse. 

lol, the irony of this. The police of course never label members of the public, never target them because of how they look or the job they do (or they job they don't have). One of my pals went through two years of hell because of this sort of behaviour from police, he literally couldn't leave his house without being stopped and searched and it culminated in his house being raided by the CID, where they found f**k all and eventually left him alone. If cops don't want labelled b*****ds then they could stop doing b*****dy things. 

On 01/10/2021 at 23:03, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Btw what we really need is to help men of any age or job recognise signs of red flags in both their own and others behaviour, how to change that behaviour or report it and how to respect women. 

I totally agree with you, however my problem with this is report it to who? We have this very case here where the police were aware they had someone called the Rapist working for them, were aware of at least two incidents involving this guy and still nothing was done about it. I don't know how anyone can have confidence in reporting things to police after this. 

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Is there any reason this article refers to the polis guy as a Conservative? Seems an unnecessary piece of info, even if it does confirm what everyone was probably thinking.

It's an elected position I think.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

s there any reason this article refers to the polis guy as a Conservative?

He's not a cop, Commissioner is an elected political role.

P.S.

Edited October 4, 2021 by welshbairn

[The Moonster]

9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

It's an elected position I think.

 

8 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

He's not a cop, Commissioner is an elected political role.

P.S.

Cheers, I didn't realise he was elected into his position. 

[Michael W]

23 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Is there any reason this article refers to the polis guy as a Conservative? Seems an unnecessary piece of info, even if it does confirm what everyone was probably thinking. 

He's the elected 'Police and Crime Commissioner'. As far as I understand the Chief Constables of the force are accountable to the PCC, although they do not manage operational policing. 

Quote

The role of the Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) is to be the voice of the people and hold the police to account. They are responsible for the totality of policing.

PCCs aim to cut crime and deliver an effective and efficient police service within their police force area. They are elected by the public to hold Chief Constables and the force to account, making the police answerable to the communities they serve.

https://www.apccs.police.uk/role-of-the-pcc/

It is one of these things that sounds good - police accountability is important, but in practice I don't really see what impact they make. It also seems at least to me as some sort of weird politicisation of the police, which frankly we can without. Unsurprisingly, you also end up with total chumps getting these jobs, as the man from Yorkshire there has shown. 

The Met is an exception to this: there is no PCC and it also isn't accountable to the Mayor either - instead it is accountable to the Home Secretary. I can only assume this is something to do with the Counter Terrorism units etc. under the Met's command. 

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

38 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

 

 

I totally agree with you, however my problem with this is report it to who? We have this very case here where the police were aware they had someone called the Rapist working for them, were aware of at least two incidents involving this guy and still nothing was done about it. I don't know how anyone can have confidence in reporting things to police after this. 

Not for me to defend people who were so alarmed by someone they nicknamed him the rapist and didnt report it on to senior managers, its even more culpable that he was in a firearms position, thats my point they could do with the same kind of training that I know is delivered up here in terms of red flags etc. That in itself isnt full proof but ive definitely known of it being put into practice and it works. I think its a societal problem and the police have been guilty of not taking action and similar organisations will also need to take action.

But what im calling for is far more radical, ive seen wee girls who’ve been raped by boys in their school and made to feel that they are to blame themselves or even ostracised by their year groups for no other reason than being a victim of crime? Thats unacceptable and something if people are educated about consent from a very young age and appropriate behaviour we can cut down by a big margin. There are some people who wouldn’t be deterred by this but on the whole it would work very well. Im a bit fed up of the ‘it wouldnt happen if the victim did this’ debate and far more interested in the ‘it wouldnt happen if the offender did this’ narrative. I would like to see a Sarah’s law brought in which involves a multi pronged approach with education from an early age, assisting people who hit red flags prior to offending and far more support and counselling for people who have been a victim. There is so much more we could do and really it isnt much to ask that we do. 

[ICTChris]

I think the reason that the Met and others are messing about saying people should flag down a bus is because they feel they have to say something to reassure people and the actual truth of this issue is hard to take - there isn't much that can be done if a police officer decides to use his position to do something like this.  You can change practices to make it less likely but if a police officer is motiviated to do something like this then they will very likely be able to.  

The way to prevent it is to stop people like Wayne Couzens from joining the police and if you can't do that, identify officers with troubling behaviour and make sure they are dealt with.  Couzens had been identified as a suspect in a sexual crime (flashing at a McDonalds drive through) but the dots weren't joined up.  As noted above, he was open about using prositutes - it might not be illegal to use prostitutes but it's obviously something police officers shouldn't be allowed to do.  

I saw a tweet that said that after Harold Shipman there were huge changes in how the doctors, espeically GPs, operated.  He was a bad apple, I doubt any other GP has ever done what he did ever but they made changes to ensure it could never happen again and to reassure people.  That's what needs to happen here.

[Thorongil]

On 02/10/2021 at 09:08, Thorongil said:

As a normal man who has never been violent in my life, I instinctively get annoyed at the stereotyping of men as violent, bad, dangerous, potential rapists, potentially killers etc. Also because of my entirely innocent son; I don’t like the idea of him being judged in such a way either as he grows up. 

The idea that I need to acknowledge guilt or responsibility for the violent crimes of others I still reject entirely. 

HOWEVER. Women do not kidnap men on the street and kill them. They are far less likely to kill or sexually assault someone. The bulk of this problem of evil and violence does reside in the male population. 

I want to know and understand what causes it. What is it in this tiny sub group of men that makes them violent towards women? There must be a driving force, a reason, something that can be tackled in some way in order to reduce the risk of harm. But what is it? 

Hi folks. Can I just ask what was wrong with this post? It seems to be attracting a fair few reds but no articulation of what’s unreasonable about it. Keen to know what possible objection anyone could have to what I’ve said there.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

3 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

Hi folks. Can I just ask what was wrong with this post? It seems to be attracting a fair few reds but no articulation of what’s unreasonable about it. Keen to know what possible objection anyone could have to what I’ve said there.

It's just yer usual "not all men" pish that seeks to absolve yourself of any blame to a societal issue. 

[Busta Nut]

I actually think the "not all men" stuff is a lot of shite when folk claim that it's nothing to do with them etc.

Genuinely curious question though. What makes it ok to group all men in this situation, where as you wouldn't do it with any other group of people where a crime has been committed by a person from that group?

I know that makes me seem a bit daft but I am looking for a genuine answer.

[welshbairn]

I wonder how many cops, who would never think of hitting a woman, called him out for his whatapp chat. I'm guessing none. 

[Thorongil]

19 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

It's just yer usual "not all men" pish that seeks to absolve yourself of any blame to a societal issue. 

I forget sometimes that a lot of people here don’t do nuance or reason very well. Well, it’s not all men. That’s just an obvious statement of fact that nobody could disagree with. And I’m entirely innocent of any form of violent or sexual crime. So I’ll say this slowly. 

People aren’t responsible for the crimes of others, no matter what shape anyone’s genitals are. Women aren’t responsible for the crimes of other women. Men aren’t responsible for the crimes of other men. Individuals aren’t responsible for cultural forces. They don’t have that power, and they don’t have that responsibility. 

AND YET, serious violence is far more likely to be carried out by men. the bad apples among men seem to be every dangerous. Leaving the dogma behind for a time, what drives this? And what can be done about it? 

or is nobody really interested in that after all?

[Thorongil]

18 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

I actually think the "not all men" stuff is a lot of shite when folk claim that it's nothing to do with them etc.

Genuinely curious question though. What makes it ok to group all men in this situation, where as you wouldn't do it with any other group of people where a crime has been committed by a person from that group?

I know that makes me seem a bit daft but I am looking for a genuine answer.

It’s fashionable at the moment. That’s it.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

6 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

I forget sometimes that a lot of people here don’t do nuance or reason very well. Well, it’s not all men. That’s just an obvious statement of fact that nobody could disagree with. And I’m entirely innocent of any form of violent or sexual crime. So I’ll say this slowly. 

People aren’t responsible for the crimes of others, no matter what shape anyone’s genitals are. Women aren’t responsible for the crimes of other women. Men aren’t responsible for the crimes of other men. Individuals aren’t responsible for cultural forces. They don’t have that power, and they don’t have that responsibility. 

AND YET, serious violence is far more likely to be carried out by men. the bad apples among men seem to be every dangerous. Leaving the dogma behind for a time, what drives this? And what can be done about it? 

or is nobody really interested in that after all?

The irony of you being unable to see the issue in yer pish and saying others don't do nuance or reason is hilarious. 

Ye almost grabbed it when you said said not all men "is an obvious statement" - yes, it is, so why say it? No one thinks it is

[Thorongil]

18 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

The irony of you being unable to see the issue in yer pish and saying others don't do nuance or reason is hilarious. 

Ye almost grabbed it when you said said not all men "is an obvious statement" - yes, it is, so why say it? No one thinks it is

I didn’t say it though. I made a brief point regarding generalisation and then spoke only for myself and with regard to my son. 

where does that leave your fevered rantings? 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Thorongil

[Thorongil]

It does seem though that there is a complete disinterest in trying to examine or seek to discover what drives this kind of violence and how it can be stopped.

why is that?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Thorongil said:

It does seem though that there is a complete disinterest in trying to examine or seek to discover what drives this kind of violence and how it can be stopped.

why is that?

You've already said it's nothing to do with you so there's nothing you can do about it.

[The Moonster]

Just now, Thorongil said:

It does seem though that there is a complete disinterest in trying to examine or seek to discover what drives this kind of violence and how it can be stopped.

why is that?

Mate, you're asking a football forum questions that psychiatric and behavioural experts would probably struggle to answer. What exactly are you expecting to be forthcoming here?

For a man who feels no guilt or responsibility, you seem hell bent on finding a solution. Does that not suggest you do feel some sort of responsibility here?