Sarah Everard

[Miguel Sanchez]

24 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I think it's pretty straightforward tbh mate, the "non-point" is that it's a good illustration of the way many (most?) men behave around these issues, completely forgetting about it as soon as it's convenient to them, which as I initially pointed out is also reflected in the replies. And I'm not sure why posts on the internet have to achieve anything really, although I understand you take your gaming reviews very seriously

To be clear I meant posts like the tweet quoted, not yours. I had also forgotten Ronaldo had been accused of rape, which is either a comment on how little interest I have in European football or how little impact male violence against women actually has outside of the especially graphic cases.

Trying to decry people (I realise it's Piers Morgan who is a moron) as equally uninterested in society's treatment of women because of two cases as disparate as this one doesn't achieve anything because it's not making a point. It's basically the Yet You Participate in Society - I Am Very Intelligent comic as if every accusation of wrongdoing is comparable, regardless of the actual legal status of them, and the person (or "men" in this instance as he now represents them) is now completely worthless because they don't make being performative about women's rights/safety part of every thought they have. 

 

[MuckleMoo]

I know there's a couple of people on here that work in the prison service (WhiteRoseKillie?). I know the prison officers will act with professionalism but what is life going to be like for this guy inside? Is he looking at a lifetime in near isolation due to him being a walking target or are we just assuming this is the case?

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[ICTJohnboy]

15 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Yep absolutely agree, something like that needs to happen. Police should be held to a higher level of accountability.

 

ICR, isn't it the case in Scotland that officers have to act in pairs before they can make an arrest?

I

[Newbornbairn]

4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

ICR, isn't it the case in Scotland that officers have to act in pairs before they can make an arrest?

I

Isn't it two to charge someone?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

16 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

ICR, isn't it the case in Scotland that officers have to act in pairs before they can make an arrest?

I

Ok, so its complicated, i dont really want to get into a big conversation about the nuances of scots law when we should be talking about Sarah Everard. Scots law requires corroboration, best practice is 2 police officers make an arrest. 1 officer can detain etc to prevent a crime already occurring and wait for back up before they search etc. In remote areas like Argyll and the islands etc police officers may have to use willing members of the public to assist, this might seem strange but works in rural areas. Some offences ie sec 36 road traffic act (going through a red light) can be prosecuted without corroboration. You can use powers like sec 23 misuse of drugs act detention based on one persons (civilian or police) observation, but the search must be corroborated in some way ie with two police officers or videoed. Its complicated, but yes, thats why police officers in Scotland are usually ‘doubled crewed’ and is a sensible option. 
Im hoping that the training which is rolled out in Scotland goes UK wide, its called ‘domestic abuse matters’ and although the title may give the implication it doesnt work in this discussion, it does, it helps identify issues around misogamy and identifying and addressing alarming behaviour and traits.  

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 hour ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

To be clear I meant posts like the tweet quoted, not yours. I had also forgotten Ronaldo had been accused of rape, which is either a comment on how little interest I have in European football or how little impact male violence against women actually has outside of the especially graphic cases.

Trying to decry people (I realise it's Piers Morgan who is a moron) as equally uninterested in society's treatment of women because of two cases as disparate as this one doesn't achieve anything because it's not making a point. It's basically the Yet You Participate in Society - I Am Very Intelligent comic as if every accusation of wrongdoing is comparable, regardless of the actual legal status of them, and the person (or "men" in this instance as he now represents them) is now completely worthless because they don't make being performative about women's rights/safety part of every thought they have. 

 

Don't wanna derail the thread any more so fair enough man but I'm still struggling to see how you can miss the point here, and comparing praising someone very credibly alleged to be a rapist hours with bemoaning violence against women mere hours earlier is nowhere near the meme you mention. It's getting to the stage where asking anyone to be consistent about anything brings up that meme. And whether we like it or not the attitudes of Morgan are extremely illustrative of at least a massive minority of men in the UK

Edited September 30, 2021 by Genuine Hibs Fan

[throbber]

His this video just been released since the conviction? What a load of shite he comes out with 

 

[ICTChris]

Blog from David Allen Green about the whole life tariff.

https://davidallengreen.com/2021/09/why-the-whole-life-sentence-for-the-murderer-of-sarah-everard-is-correct/

[ICTJohnboy]

47 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Ok, so its complicated, i dont really want to get into a big conversation about the nuances of scots law when we should be talking about Sarah Everard. Scots law requires corroboration, best practice is 2 police officers make an arrest. 1 officer can detain etc to prevent a crime already occurring and wait for back up before they search etc. In remote areas like Argyll and the islands etc police officers may have to use willing members of the public to assist, this might seem strange but works in rural areas. Some offences ie sec 36 road traffic act (going through a red light) can be prosecuted without corroboration. You can use powers like sec 23 misuse of drugs act detention based on one persons (civilian or police) observation, but the search must be corroborated in some way ie with two police officers or videoed. Its complicated, but yes, thats why police officers in Scotland are usually ‘doubled crewed’ and is a sensible option. 
Im hoping that the training which is rolled out in Scotland goes UK wide, its called ‘domestic abuse matters’ and although the title may give the implication it doesnt work in this discussion, it does, it helps identify issues around misogamy and identifying and addressing alarming behaviour and traits.  

 

Cheers for that response.

You've kind of confirmed my thoughts that a horror event of this nature would have been less likely in Scotland.

[Bairnardo]

Blog from David Allen Green about the whole life tariff.

https://davidallengreen.com/2021/09/why-the-whole-life-sentence-for-the-murderer-of-sarah-everard-is-correct/

Find myself in agreement that if Police are afforded protection in the form of the greatest sentencing deterrent available, they should be subject to the same if they do something as hideous as this c**t using the fact that they are Police as part of their MO.

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[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Cheers for that response.

You've kind of confirmed my thoughts that a horror event of this nature would have been less likely in Scotland.

Lets not think that bad things dont happen here or that bad people cant get into positions of influence, but i hope and think that we are becoming very effective at spotting red flags.

[MuckleMoo]

Find myself in agreement that if Police are afforded protection in the form of the greatest sentencing deterrent available, they should be subject to the same if they do something as hideous as this c**t using the fact that they are Police as part of their MO.

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That was my take when reading the judges closing statements although he went down a different route in justifying the life tariff. If it's an automatic life tariff for killing a police/prison officer then by f**k it's a life tariff for this c**t!

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[ICTChris]

I know there's a couple of people on here that work in the prison service (WhiteRoseKillie?). I know the prison officers will act with professionalism but what is life going to be like for this guy inside? Is he looking at a lifetime in near isolation due to him being a walking target or are we just assuming this is the case?

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I’m sure it’s been discussed by prison officers on here before and they will know a lot better than me, but I imagine the main thing against him will be that he’s an ex policeman. He will probably be held in one do the category A prisons in England, everyone in there has committed horrific crimes. If you look up HMP Wakefield or Long Lartin, they are full of multiple murderers, child killers, paedophiles.

I don’t know how prison officers deal with being around these people all day.

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Cheers for that response.

You've kind of confirmed my thoughts that a horror event of this nature would have been less likely in Scotland.

I don’t see why it would.  A rogue officer “arresting” a woman in Scotland is no different to the same in London.

There was a chief constable from the Police Academy (can’t remember the exact term but it was some kind of learning institute) on the news earlier saying she was within her rights to refuse to get in the car until another officer turned up.  He wasn’t victim blaming but responding to a question about whether she could have done anything to possibly save herself.

How many law abiding people are realistically going to refuse to get in a car when they’re under arrest?  Just tack a resisting arrest charge onto whatever you’ve falsely arrested me for officer will be the first thought.

[NotThePars]

2 hours ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

To be clear I meant posts like the tweet quoted, not yours. I had also forgotten Ronaldo had been accused of rape, which is either a comment on how little interest I have in European football or how little impact male violence against women actually has outside of the especially graphic cases.

Trying to decry people (I realise it's Piers Morgan who is a moron) as equally uninterested in society's treatment of women because of two cases as disparate as this one doesn't achieve anything because it's not making a point. It's basically the Yet You Participate in Society - I Am Very Intelligent comic as if every accusation of wrongdoing is comparable, regardless of the actual legal status of them, and the person (or "men" in this instance as he now represents them) is now completely worthless because they don't make being performative about women's rights/safety part of every thought they have. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Don't wanna derail the thread any more so fair enough man but I'm still struggling to see how you can miss the point here, and comparing praising someone very credibly alleged to be a rapist hours with bemoaning violence against women mere hours earlier is nowhere near the meme you mention. It's getting to the stage where asking anyone to be consistent about anything brings up that meme. And whether we like it or not the attitudes of Morgan are extremely illustrative of at least a massive minority of men in the UK

yea it's got no relation to that meme when it's not like there's any obligation for anyone to gush about Cristiano Ronaldo

[No_Problemo]

28 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Lets not think that bad things dont happen here or that bad people cant get into positions of influence, but i hope and think that we are becoming very effective at spotting red flags.

Going back a decade or so here, but in my experience in my early twenties - the roasters on shift (generally very hostile towards people during incidents, spoke down to/bullied probationers ) were not remotely dealt with by management - who were very aware. In fact, I would suggest the sergeants actually neighboured them with those they disliked to try and make their work life so miserable it pushed them out. I left a while back, but hopefully things have moved on! 

[ICTChris]

I’m sure I posted something similar to this previously probably in this very thread but.

One thing this case made me do is think about people I know and have known, how they’ve behaved and treated women. Obviously this guy is on the extreme side of misogyny but I have known several guys who were decent, knock about guys in our group of friends but who a lot of women steered clear of and felt there was something off about. I remember watching a talk by Gavin De Becker about his book ‘The Gift of Fear’, where he essentially said that human beings have levels of intuition about people and situations that we don’t really understand or appreciate and if you get a bad feeling about something it can often be overlooked but shouldn’t be. Couzens was nicknamed ‘The Rapist’ because women were so uncomfortable around him. There are suggestions that he used prostitutes, that he exposed himself etc. I don’t know how you quantify stuff like this, you can’t fire people because others find them a bit creepy. But there must be ways to assess people who want to the policemen.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

14 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Going back a decade or so here, but in my experience in my early twenties - the roasters on shift (generally very hostile towards people during incidents, spoke down to/bullied probationers ) were not remotely dealt with by management - who were very aware. In fact, I would suggest the sergeants actually neighboured them with those they disliked to try and make their work life so miserable it pushed them out. I left a while back, but hopefully things have moved on! 

Treating them like shit isnt on, its so fucking hard to recruit people who will stick that job that they should be made to feel welcome. My own approach to managing people is to really emphasise the team part of it, cooperation, helping people and focus on welfare. Get those bits right and any flags/issues will become very clear. I would have joined similar time to you and at a similar age, think things have improved in that regard but fallen backwards in so many other ways. 

[Shotgun]

7 hours ago, Mr. Brightside said:

It's the same sort of thing as the American cops that gun people down, they always say "it's only a few bad apples" without realising what the rest of that metaphor actually is.

Agreed. I boils my piss that so many people (police and civilians) trot out that line as a way of dismissing the problems within the force without ever asking the question "So if it's only a small minority of bad cops, why don't the large majority of good cops fucking well deal with them?"

If you have 1,000 good officers and 10 bad officers, but the 1,000 good officers don't do anything about the 10 bad officers, then you have 1,010 bad officers. 

[No_Problemo]

16 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Treating them like shit isnt on, its so fucking hard to recruit people who will stick that job that they should be made to feel welcome. My own approach to managing people is to really emphasise the team part of it, cooperation, helping people and focus on welfare. Get those bits right and any flags/issues will become very clear. I would have joined similar time to you and at a similar age, think things have improved in that regard but fallen backwards in so many other ways. 

Definitely - in my experience it was a depressingly massive focus on trying to give out traffic tickets. Soul destroying stuff - if you weren’t interested in giving decent people tickets for innocuous things then you weren’t in the managers good books. A managers role is important in any job, however when someone can decide exactly what your shift is going to look like it becomes even more important. As you say, a focus on actually helping people and it becomes evident who isn’t interested in that. 

I can still remember them gloating about fining someone for forgetting to turn off their fog lights straight after leaving the motorway. Embarrassing. 
 

There is certainly a lot of work to do for the police to regain trust following incidents such as this. I think mandatory body cams would be a start, and protects both parties.