Sarah Everard

[roman_bairn]

This thread has seriously wandered off the topic of a poor girl, apparently murdered for no reason, and allegedly at the hands of a serving police officer.
Feeling terribly sorry for her family and many friends tonight.
Her hair colour, race, wealth or religion is absolutely irrelevant at this point.....

[yoda]

Fair play to any poster who manages to take a topic about a woman being murdered and sidestep to "Yes... but men also get killed".

[8MileBU]

27 minutes ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

It is scary the amount of women who have experienced some kind of sexual harassment. 

When I was 15 an older man who I did not know somehow obtained my mobile number and would masturbate down the phone to me whilst describing exactly what I was wearing that day, knowing what I had been up to, the route I walked home from school etc. I went to the police who told me to change my number. I was genuinely scared some creep was stalking me and they made me feel so stupid I left the police station crying.

That was 15 years ago but I would hope that if a young girl experienced that now someone would take it more seriously.

In the grand scheme of things, that is still relatively recent despite how fast mobiles phones have advanced. Sickeningly lackadaisical attitude from the police when I’d imagine it’d probably be a relatively straightforward task for them to trace the perpetrator.

Genuinely worrying how often you hear stories of how the police have had opportunities to snare sex offenders but let it slip only for the offending to escalate.

Edited March 11, 2021 by 8MileBU

[Priti priti priti Patel]

6 minutes ago, yoda said:

Fair play to any poster who manages to take a topic about a woman being murdered and sidestep to "Yes... but men also get killed".

Och, no-one's done that have they, I am the one who started it and I replied to a post saying "It's been claimed that police in Clapham and Brixton have warned women not to go out alone at night while this investigation is ongoing" by saying "my girlfriend's mentioned to me lots of women are talking about how they can't go out at night generally. I wonder whether the statistics back that up or if it's perception", and then other people replied to me. That's hardly a side step, a baby step at most, but to me it seems squarely on topic - and not even contentious.

I'm away to bed.

[Fratelli]

Taken from the Sun so pinch of salt and all that, but the current line of thinking seems to be that he did use his police status to get her into his car, possibly using lockdown regulations as a reason to speak to her. Speculation at this stage of course but brutal stuff.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Fratelli

[parsforlife]

43 minutes ago, GordonS said:

It's not rare. Something that happens to one in five women in the UK - and a much higher proportion around the world - can't be described as rare.

Women being attacked by strangers in public is incredibly rare.  Only 7 percent of attacks are done by strangers. 

the so called ‘safety advice’(which is completely bs putting the emphasis on women to not be raped instead of men not to rape) doesn’t make any sense in that regard.  It completely distorts the reality of most sexual assaults.  ‘Man jumping out of bushes’ isn’t your typical rapist.   Simply it’s not a crime you are likely to suffer.

30 minutes ago, Michael W said:

This is a problem that's unsolvable. You can educate people until you're blue in the face that violence (including gender-based violence) is wrong and women aren't sex objects but there will always be some that won't hear it or just have naturally violent tendancies. It's not something you can eliminate, unfortunately. Violent men exist and some will attack other men and some will attack women. I have no idea how you try and minimise incidents like this one. 

 

I don't think the police have helped matters here either. Putting aside that the suspect has probably been subject to developed vetting background checks given his role in diplomatic protection, what kind of message are you sending when you tell woman not to go out alone after 9pm? Thats a ridiculous position to take - it shouldn't be like that. 

I don’t think there’s a permanent solution but we should always be looking to reduce the violent nutter style crime. There’s certainly small but significant steps we can take, we’ll never eliminate them, but anything we can do to chip away at it should be considered.

21 minutes ago, roman_bairn said:

This thread has seriously wandered off the topic of a poor girl, apparently murdered for no reason, and allegedly at the hands of a serving police officer.
Feeling terribly sorry for her family and many friends tonight.
Her hair colour, race, wealth or religion is absolutely irrelevant at this point.....

Its pretty shit, but ‘person potentially murdered’ does generate any debate outside of Facebook rumors.   The societal issues are of far bigger consequence on a national scale,

 

 

[Guest TheJTS98]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Women being attacked by strangers in public is incredibly rare.  Only 7 percent of attacks are done by strangers.

This is an important point.

While cases like this inevitably stick in the mind and help shape public opinion, attacks on women by strangers are very rare. ONS figures for 2020 showed that 0.4% of women were attacked by a stranger. That's around a third of the figure for men.

I'm not getting into that as a 'Men have it worse' argument, I'm using the numbers to point out that we need to find a balance between highlighting an issue and needlessly causing women to live in fear.

And when it comes to rape specifically, Rape Crisis say that 90% of female rape victims are raped by someone they know. It's not some guy in the street that women need to fear. The University of Bristol in 2009 found that rape using coercion and pressure was three times as prevalent in the UK as rape using physical force. That's your boyfriend or the pal that you trust, or the colleague etc.

Put simply, it is safe for women to go out for walks. It is safe for women to walk home at night. The numbers tell us that. The fact that women don't feel safe to do so is something that needs tackled. Women in the UK live in a modern, safe country and should be encouraged to enjoy that and live life.

I've heard female pals express ideas like being worried someone will shove them into a van and chop them up. It should be pointed out I know plenty of women who do not feel this way at all, and are fine cutting about by themselves. But some are very conscious of this kind of thing and take great precautions to avoid it. But the chances of a woman being victim to violent crime at the hands of someone she doesn't know are minuscule.

Should women feel like they have to think really hard about every action in their life to avoid something that is statistically extremely unlikely to happen? It would do society a lot more good for the media to stop scaring women into their houses and to encourage genuine discussion on the real dangers women still face, such as abusive partners and predatory acquaintances and walls of silence from those around them because 'It's none of our business'.

I know there was objection to the phrase 'the economics of risk' earlier. But when it comes to violence against women, the focus is wrong in the public conversation in the UK. Consistently having the wrong conversation doesn't solve problems. What seems to have happened to this lady is tragic, but it is not representative of the problems facing most women in the UK and it shouldn't be used to tell women they should be scared of going outside. They shouldn't be.

Edited March 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Arabdownunder]

Interesting take that women have to be told whether its safe for them to go out or not. Pretty sure they make that risk assessment themselves.

Women know that the chance of being attacked is very slight, but they also weigh up the potential impact of such an attack in making that decision. Men may be more likely to be attacked, but much less likely to be sexually assaulted. Men also rationalise that they would be able to fight off or flee from any attacker and so are more willing to take risks. Remember also that although a tiny percentage of women are attacked, a much, much larger number have experienced things which make them uncomfortable while out and about. They've been wolf-whistled, catcalled, followed or otherwise harassed, all of which contributes to them feeling unsafe.

[Guest TheJTS98]

25 minutes ago, Arabdownunder said:

Interesting take that women have to be told whether its safe for them to go out or not. Pretty sure they make that risk assessment themselves.

Women know that the chance of being attacked is very slight, but they also weigh up the potential impact of such an attack in making that decision. Men may be more likely to be attacked, but much less likely to be sexually assaulted. Men also rationalise that they would be able to fight off or flee from any attacker and so are more willing to take risks. Remember also that although a tiny percentage of women are attacked, a much, much larger number have experienced things which make them uncomfortable while out and about. They've been wolf-whistled, catcalled, followed or otherwise harassed, all of which contributes to them feeling unsafe.

I'm sorry, but this is part of the same narrative that helps nobody.

This idea that it is somehow an act of mansplaining to use actual data to challenge perception of an issue is completely backwards. Especially when the version of the truth being peddled by the media will have a direct impact on the quality of life of lots of women.

As for the idea that men should be able to fight it off or run away, this is frankly sexist nonsense. I'd wager that the majority of men do not want to fight anyone and would not fancy their chances against an aggressor in a scrap.

The Guardian has a prominent section on its website at this very moment carrying quotes from women telling men how to make them feel safe. It includes suggestions like not blocking alleyways or underpasses at night. How many men would find that situation comfortable? I certainly wouldn't. Groups of people blocking dark alleys at night is not an issue that affects only women. The stats tell us it is an issue that is more likely to impact men, yet the media narrative is that this is something women should worry about.

The tips are linked to the story about the missing woman as if this story proves that this is something a woman going about her day should worry about. That's completely irresponsible. The facts tell us this is a massively overblown fear.

Crimewatch on BBC used to routinely remind people how rare acts of crime like those shown on the show were. The media should be highlighting to women that while this incident is terrible, it is also a vanishingly rare occurrence.

It's ok to challenge a narrative sometimes. All the talk of 'interesting take' etc etc doesn't change that.

Edited March 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Arabdownunder]

^^Mansplainer found

I'm not saying men should be able to fight. I'm saying that men are more likely to believe (probably wrongly) they can fight it off. When was the last time any woman said "I'll be OK , I can take care of myself."

Men's fears are of a punch in the puss and their mobile being nicked. Recalibrate that to fear of being sexually assaulted and your behaviour might change. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

5 minutes ago, Arabdownunder said:

^^Mansplainer found

I'm not saying men should be able to fight. I'm saying that men are more likely to believe (probably wrongly) they can fight it off. When was the last time any woman said "I'll be OK , I can take care of myself."

Men's fears are of a punch in the puss and their mobile being nicked. Recalibrate that to fear of being sexually assaulted and your behaviour might change. 

Yes, but the point is that women don't get that fear of being sexually assaulted from thin air. And the perception of what they should fear is wrong.

Women should fear being assaulted by acquaintances from their uni halls of residence, or colleagues, or friends. Those situations require far greater vigilance than walking home at night. The numbers are in.

It's completely wrong to push this notion that a woman walking around in 21st century Britain has a well-grounded fear of the people around her. The Guardian linking those two articles is disgraceful. It's a classic example of the problem.

And your response to my post is similar. Even when the data is presented clearly, people still instinctively recoil at the suggestion that it doesn't fit the accepted truth.

It's not morally good to encourage women to fear their surroundings.

Edited March 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Arabdownunder]

If you want to pretend its an argument based on the data you quoted then the only logical conclusion is that men are doing it wrong.

They  are more likely to go out alone at night and are therefore much more likely to be assaulted. It's completely wrong to push the notion that a man walking around in 21st century Britain (or Australia) should not fear the people around him. The perception of what they should fear is wrong. It's not morally good to encourage men to not fear their surroundings. Men should fear being assaulted by strangers.

The world awaits the next instalment of your "Women should..." series

[Guest TheJTS98]

7 minutes ago, Arabdownunder said:

If you want to pretend its an argument based on the data you quoted then the only logical conclusion is that men are doing it wrong.

They  are more likely to go out alone at night and are therefore much more likely to be assaulted. It's completely wrong to push the notion that a man walking around in 21st century Britain (or Australia) should not fear the people around him. The perception of what they should fear is wrong. It's not morally good to encourage men to not fear their surroundings. Men should fear being assaulted by strangers.

The world awaits the next instalment of your "Women should..." series

Help mah boab.

Could take issue with any part of that, but I think the saddest part is your willingness to go back to the idea that I'm some kind of Jeremy Clarkson telling women what they should and shouldn't do. It's ok for people to enter into any kind of discussion using reasonable evidence. It's completely disingenuous and is bad faith arguing. It's appealing to a pile-on rather than discussion.

It's sad that you view discussion as something that can only be done on the basis of membership of a group.

The validity of evidence doesn't change based on whether it's a man or a woman presenting it.

Edited March 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Arabdownunder]

 

27 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

Women should...

^^Jeremy Clarkson found

 

 

[CountyFan]

Just some absolutely barmy takes on here that are spectacularly missing the point. It is worrying how ingrained the need is for people to rationalise horrendous things with whataboutery. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by CountyFan

[Jambomo]

To be honest I think that a perception of risk to women is almost encouraged by the media and that is spreading through society a bit now. 

I am not suggesting there is no risk at all, clearly there is, but even fairly unusual crimes are magnified to kind of suggest women should be afraid of things like walking alone (even during the day).  I think the fear and perception of risk probably is more disabling than the event.

It definitely has an impact, one of the walking groups i am in has more than a few women who are scared of walking alone,  but actually equally a lot of women who aren’t. Trying to have a healthy balance of appropriate awareness and caution, without letting it ruin your freedom is a difficult one.

[Jambomo]

7 hours ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

It is scary the amount of women who have experienced some kind of sexual harassment. 

When I was 15 an older man who I did not know somehow obtained my mobile number and would masturbate down the phone to me whilst describing exactly what I was wearing that day, knowing what I had been up to, the route I walked home from school etc. I went to the police who told me to change my number. I was genuinely scared some creep was stalking me and they made me feel so stupid I left the police station crying.

That was 15 years ago but I would hope that if a young girl experienced that now someone would take it more seriously.

Yeah, I had a bad experience as well, when I was about 17/18. 
 

I was out with my friends and left to walk home and I had noticed this guy standing out side a takeaway shop a bit down a side street to the one I was on, I only noticed as he kind of looked at me. I kept on walking, not thinking anything of it but when I looked back after a few minutes and he was walking behind me, but quite far back - what got me was he seemed to be looking at my direction and didn’t have any takeaway food.

A few mins later I looked round again and caught him slowing down from running and he was much, much nearer - I got a bit freaked out and jumped in a taxi. I didn’t even have any money, had to wake my mum up and get £20 off her (she was fine when I said why).

Edited March 11, 2021 by Jambomo

[hk blues]

13 hours ago, Louis Litt said:

Yeah for how horrendous it is (and the rumours are fucking grim) it's equally hard to wrap your head around why someone in their mid twenties would come here with their two kids to meet a 50 year old off the internet. 

I guess you've never been to the Philippines.  There are a significant number of women here who spend their days "working" towards just that.  

[RH33]

6 hours ago, Fratelli said:

Taken from the Sun so pinch of salt and all that, but the current line of thinking seems to be that he did use his police status to get her into his car, possibly using lockdown regulations as a reason to speak to her. Speculation at this stage of course but brutal stuff.

I suggested to friend something along those lines may have happened. I do wonder if others will come out woodwork now he’s arrested show pattern behaviour leading to murder..

Utter tragedy for the woman and her her loved ones.

I used be fairly relaxed and walk home when I lived in Glasgow at 2am. 

I had to report something to the police. They did take the matter seriously. However my statement was given and then i had several more interviews where it was forensically and robustly questioned.

Suspect got to no Comment his way through one interview.

The figures for rape conviction are tiny.

[Jacksgranda]

8 hours ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Tbf I’m on board with Gordon S’ idea that anyone who posts ‘wid’ on P&B faces an immediate ban. That’ll be half the creepy middle-aged men gone and the board would be better for it.

 

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

I never said that.

^^^ Posts-"wid"-type-posts, imho