footnotes Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 By investing I only meant more sponsorship because if clubs can prove through higher attendances that they have a larger following then sponsors will be keen on the increased exposure of their product, larger customer base. I would expect media coverage to increase, too, in the way that certain clubs benefit from more coverage because of their proven fan base. So I would speculate that regular lower gate prices would lead to increased revenues in the longer term via a sort of positive feedback loop. And i'll guess that the key thing is just to encourage as many people through the gate in any way possible, because once they're there you can sell them stuff and they ll identify with the club long term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 3 hours ago, footnotes said: By investing I only meant more sponsorship because if clubs can prove through higher attendances that they have a larger following then sponsors will be keen on the increased exposure of their product, larger customer base. I would expect media coverage to increase, too, in the way that certain clubs benefit from more coverage because of their proven fan base. So I would speculate that regular lower gate prices would lead to increased revenues in the longer term via a sort of positive feedback loop. And i'll guess that the key thing is just to encourage as many people through the gate in any way possible, because once they're there you can sell them stuff and they ll identify with the club long term. Gate prices are set to bring in the most revenue per punter. You can dish out as many free tickets to schoolkids as you like, offer cheap season tickets, half-price entry. You never increase the gate significantly and it's never sustained. Every club has tried this at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 44 minutes ago, Cyclizine said: Gate prices are set to bring in the most revenue per punter. You can dish out as many free tickets to schoolkids as you like, offer cheap season tickets, half-price entry. You never increase the gate significantly and it's never sustained. Every club has tried this at some point. Indeed It's pretty clear is that you can't simply double attendances by halving prices. The idea that higher prices can actually decrease total revenue is hardly rocket science. The people whose job it is to set the prices will be well aware that there's a balance to be struck and while their efforts may not be bang on they're not going to be massively off the mark. It may be that a club could get sell 15% more tickets if they dropped their prices by 10% or maybe the they'd only shift 5% more but ultimately it's not going to make a transformative difference either way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footnotes Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 I'll disagree once more then leave it at that. The goal would be to fill the home end every game. Even if it's with youngsters with free tickets. Do it consistently and it's many more people buying things and a better atmosphere today, plus a greater support media coverage and sponsorship tomorrow. Higher prices for bigger games where there's naturally more interest, fine, but fill the home end each game any way you can to prove support and so perpetuate more media, sponsor and supoorter interest long term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 On 22/03/2022 at 10:02, footnotes said: I'll disagree once more then leave it at that. The goal would be to fill the home end every game. Even if it's with youngsters with free tickets. Do it consistently and it's many more people buying things and a better atmosphere today, plus a greater support media coverage and sponsorship tomorrow. Higher prices for bigger games where there's naturally more interest, fine, but fill the home end each game any way you can to prove support and so perpetuate more media, sponsor and supoorter interest long term. Which clubs would this work at? Which clubs at lower levels can attract a sponsor willing to put enough money in to offset the drop in gate money? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 On 22/03/2022 at 10:02, footnotes said: I'll disagree once more then leave it at that. The goal would be to fill the home end every game. Even if it's with youngsters with free tickets. Do it consistently and it's many more people buying things and a better atmosphere today, plus a greater support media coverage and sponsorship tomorrow. Higher prices for bigger games where there's naturally more interest, fine, but fill the home end each game any way you can to prove support and so perpetuate more media, sponsor and supoorter interest long term. A lot of clubs have u16s or u12s in for free for the entire season. They can afford to do that because it doesn't translate into sell out crowds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy groundhopper Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Difficult one to get right, majority of clubs can't attract 5,000+, sponsors are thin on the ground and probably want to get a good return (and be seen on a big stage), youngsters have too many choices - a low % maybe future fans, even less make it in the pro game. Hopefully clubs do better in Europe, the National side progress further, I want all the home nations to be strong tbh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAI Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 (edited) For more investment in Scottish football you're really talking about how to attract more viewers, which can be either bums on seats in grounds or attention through the media. Therefore, as a club chairperson I would surely be aiming to fill as much of the stadium as possible with home fans each game. I don't think you can charge adults under a fiver because of the baddies you might attract, but more than a tenner for most league games will keep people away because they also have to pay for food and transport. For me, £5 at the gate or £10 for entry plus voucher for a pie and a bovril would be enough to attract me back to the game. There'll be plenty like me who listen to the radio or do cheaper things on a Saturday afternoon - particularly those with families who would hugely benefit from a consistent approach to fair pricing, rather than the occasional gimmick that clubs usually go for just to tick the 'we tried that but it didn't work' box in order to excuse their bloated prices. Children free with paying adults is good for the future, as is £1 each for youngsters going along with their mates who all have hollow legs and will spend plenty on grub once in the ground. I don't see any point in just knocking-off a couple of quid from the usual high prices in the hope of attracting a few more to less glamorous games: you just end up losing money on the usual punters and no-one else turns up. People aren't THAT sensitive to a change in ticket price (also shown by a willingness to pay much more for the biggest games), so you have to go further and over a sustained period in order to bring them into the habit of going along to matches. It's also worth potential sponsors/media remembering that it's not the same people who make up the home support each game, as different people have different commitments on Saturday afternoons - therefore the actual home support/eyes on their product is larger than seemingly-consistent home attendance figures suggest. That's my view of the bottom-up approach to increasing investment. From the top-down, it's about the collective product and having competitions as sellable as can be. So for me you're looking at some sort of Masters competition between the best teams, even if it's just a re-brand of the post-split top 6 - but possibly something new, beyond the League competition, as part of a wider restructure. The League Cup I like, as it has quirky dynamic to it. The Challenge Cup would benefit from a stronger identity, such as including the best Scottish part-timers (16HL+16LL in Round 1) - rather than its recent nebulous lack of focus with invites to B teams and those from other countries). Edited April 7, 2022 by RabidAI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footnotes Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 (edited) Maybe those who already invest in Scottish football aren't going about it in the right way. I've been reading Football Hackers by Christoph Biermann. It's about clubs investing in the use of data and the success that can bring. One insight is that more money spent on players' wages is a better predictor of success than money spent on transfer fees. And a spreading resources across the squad is preferable to having a few star players. And it can be a waste of money attempting to develop youth when bigger clubs already have the best young players on their books. (I don't agree with those last two points) It talks at length about metrics such as Expected Goals and Packing. The former gives clubs a better idea of how lucky or unlucky they have been in their results (as does ranking goal difference vs points total) so that managers such as Jack Ross at Hibs aren't sacked unnecessarily. Packing helps identify players who have the cutting edge, who can be retained on better contracts or signed more cheaply if other clubs don't realise it. Some interesting ideas in the book. I think any Scottish club having regular access to the money of European group stages won't need any further investment in order to challenge for the league, but they maybe need to invest what they already have more smartly in order to reach that stage. Or else it's a Sugar Daddy needed to pump-prime clubs. Edited April 19, 2022 by footnotes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Given that Scotland only has 4* real cities it's quite impressive how much investment Scottish football clubs actually manage to pull in I'm sure Motherwell's treasurer would love to have Executive boxes, stadium naming rights massive busy corporate hospitality suites and all that but Motherwell isn't a big market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom By this measure Motherwell's equivalents in the English leagues would be Accrington Stanley or Burton Albion but Motherwell are a bigger business than either of those. * I know 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 On 19/04/2022 at 11:27, footnotes said: Maybe those who already invest in Scottish football aren't going about it in the right way. I've been reading Football Hackers by Christoph Biermann. It's about clubs investing in the use of data and the success that can bring. One insight is that more money spent on players' wages is a better predictor of success than money spent on transfer fees. And a spreading resources across the squad is preferable to having a few star players. And it can be a waste of money attempting to develop youth when bigger clubs already have the best young players on their books. (I don't agree with those last two points) It talks at length about metrics such as Expected Goals and Packing. The former gives clubs a better idea of how lucky or unlucky they have been in their results (as does ranking goal difference vs points total) so that managers such as Jack Ross at Hibs aren't sacked unnecessarily. Packing helps identify players who have the cutting edge, who can be retained on better contracts or signed more cheaply if other clubs don't realise it. Some interesting ideas in the book. I think any Scottish club having regular access to the money of European group stages won't need any further investment in order to challenge for the league, but they maybe need to invest what they already have more smartly in order to reach that stage. Or else it's a Sugar Daddy needed to pump-prime clubs. This is a good point but an issue with this as with everything is cost. It still costs to get a good analytics person or team to gather the data and interpret it right. A basic but hopefully fruitful way is that you would want your manager and his team to be believe in this and be involved and gathering the data that is readily available may not be that difficult to then present to them. Do you know of smaller clubs doing this successfully already? Would be interesting to know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAI Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Just thinking that the current investors at clubs near the top of Scottish football are a quirky bunch. What with the spending tens of millions on a new stadium when all the present stadium needs is a thorough refurbishment and upgrade, in order to retain its quirky individuality - like any home should be. Or the sacking of a manager who just about achieved all you can do, given the disparity of resources - third in the league, and two sucessive cup finals. Or the determination to pursue a new stadium alone, when your very near neighbours may just be interested in sharing the burden with you. I'm wishing them every success in their efforts, because I want to see the Old Firm beaten in the league before I die, but my eyebrows are on the ceiling and my jaw on the floor when I read about what these successful businessman do when they become involved in Scottish football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionsof67 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Cause they're cowards with no ambition. If Hearts invest strongly this summer so that they can do well in Europe next season and get another 3rd place finish and repeat the process then there is no reason they cant continue to grow and make themselves easily the 3rd best team in the country. Then if you do this successfully for 3-5 seasons maybe Scotland can either pip Netherland/Portugal to that 3rd champions league qualifying spot in the coefficients or Hearts capitalise on Sevco having a poor season and steal second. If Aberdeen and Hibs can do the same with the Europa conference league then there's no reason that Scottish teams cant say look at us world, we're worth your time and effort. but first they need to sort themselves out this summer. Scottish clubs must reach group stage football in europe so they can get more money, get better players and better sponsors. this will also help the entire league. Next season is our chance but we need all 3 teams to do well. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 we've been through this many times over the years. Scottish football is (slightly) too expensive for what you get, but that's not why fans stay away. they stay away mostly because the product is garbage and they can't be arsed with it. the loyal diehards and those for whom the football is an integral part of their social life will go regardless ( blokes with kids & groups of lads) the rest will decide after several years of your club letting you down on the park whilst none of the revolving door of players can trap a baw, use both feet & take on a defender or string 3 passes together, that it' easier and cheaper to watch literally the best players in the world entertaining you on the TV. the old phrase of "put a winning team on the park and crowds will come back " is almost a CCOM, obviously not every team can be winning, TBF the current scot prem has better quality of players now than it did 10 years ago when crowds fell to their lowest ebb in a generation , and , most clubs have better crowds now than then 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddite Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) On 07/03/2021 at 06:20, Darren44 said: Question We all want Scottish Football back to being competitive at least in Domestic game and Europe. But it never ever be. While lack of investment is on going. Scotland Outside two Glasgow clubs. Have Two Edinburgh Clubs, Two Dundee Clubs and Aberdeen. Strangely unlike Glasgow clubs local Business are unwilling to invest at the same level as the Two Glasgow Clubs. While do clubs outside the two Glasgow clubs struggle so much to attract investment both local and worldwide. In terms of Football having Seven clubs competitive is good for the game. The real concern is how quickly and easily your average everyday person was persuaded to view the embodiment of their own working class communities in terms of “investment opportunities” for the monied classes to increase their wealth. Edited May 10, 2022 by Luddite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 The real concern is how quickly and easily your average everyday person was persuaded to view the embodiment of their own working class communities in terms of “investment opportunities” for the monied classes to increase their wealth.Investing in a football club is notoriously unlikely to increase one’s wealth 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddite Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Investing in a football club is notoriously unlikely to increase one’s wealth True, thought many of the comments on here focus on “return on investment”. But to your point, “increase their wealth” was an inaccurate choice of words. My main point was the way fans talk in business w**k-speak about things like “ROI” and refer to football as a “product on the marketplace” in complete earnestness and with no sense of it sticking in their craw. I’m not in denial that that’s the reality of the situation, it’s the acceptance (and sometimes a passionate, almost joyful acceptance) of this reality that I find puzzling/disheartening. Edited May 10, 2022 by Luddite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 It’s not all to do with TV money. it’s the way the SFA have set up the ownership rules. We are being blocked by our own people. We are far too traditional for the modern game and we are being left behind. apparently there have been lots of interest and talks about investing into Scottish football. There are many leagues in Europe just like ours that are far more successful and attractive to players. And that’s what it comes down to. Attracting players. check this out below very very interesting read. https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/rangers-celtics-dominance-can-ended-21694907.amp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 21/05/2022 at 19:48, Gregory said: It’s not all to do with TV money. it’s the way the SFA have set up the ownership rules. We are being blocked by our own people. We are far too traditional for the modern game and we are being left behind. apparently there have been lots of interest and talks about investing into Scottish football. There are many leagues in Europe just like ours that are far more successful and attractive to players. And that’s what it comes down to. Attracting players. check this out below very very interesting read. https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/rangers-celtics-dominance-can-ended-21694907.amp It worked a treat at Barnsley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: It worked a treat at Barnsley OK Barnsley got relegated but they've still got AS Nancy who <checks notes> got relegated to the 3rd tier as well and , lowest budget in the league, KV Oostend who followed up their 5th place finish by dropping back to 12th but at least they didn't get relegated Edited May 23, 2022 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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