Why Don't people invest in Scottish Football?

[realmadrid]

15 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

I’m surprised that an investor hasn’t picked a Scottish club to turn into a Scottish Man City tbh. Okay, Romanov tried it - and it nearly worked to be fair until he sacked Burley and then financially it all went to shit.

The investor would not need to spend nearly as much money as those would in England - desperate to get to the premier league - and a small but significant investment into the chosen Scottish club would make a hell of a difference. Winning the top flight is the holy grail of course but even forgetting that, making the club more competitive with the old firm would likely return a Scottish or league cup. High league finishes would also be achievable and then there’s the possibility of getting to the Europa League group stages -
all of which generate a bit of revenue.

All it takes is Celtic or Rangers to have an off season and they are there for the taking. Aberdeen were challenging Celtic in February 2016 but they shat it. With higher quality players and a bit more money behind them they could have easily beaten Ronnys Celtic to the title.

Of course, the investor would have to accept that the returns might not be great due to the profile of the Scottish game. They would just have to be up for the challenge and have a genuine interest in Scottish football. It still surprises me though that someone out there hasn’t thought they would like to make a club a bit of a play thing an try to do incredible things with them. You never know, winning the league with another Scottish club would be massive news in European football and if they got said club into the Champions League group stages (this is unrealistic I know but we can dream) it would boost their profile massively. With a bit of marketing they could maybe make them more fashionable across Europe and the world.
 

The quick answer to all of the above is TV viewing figures

The owners at Man City etc can justify their investment in their hobby by the TV exposure it gets. The English leagues get a world wide viewing , we get some but thats mainly due to the trade mark due having fan clubs all over the world

Yes a large investment could bring a team to be the best of the rest but they would fail UEFA FFP rules and look at the league cup final TV figures, 49000 people watched it, so they won't even see an uptake on sponsorship . 

Another club winning the league would be big news .... for one day, it could cost you about 20 to 30 million a season in wages , never mind the transfer fees and there is no way anyone could make any money in Scotland doing it, if it was possible someone would have done It by now.

 

[realmadrid]

15 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I haven't been following it that closely, but haven't Aberdeen, Hibs, and the two Dundee clubs basically been taken over by "Americans"?

Look at how well the Americans at Dundee can pick a good manager.  Hence why with each appointment they fall further and further down the leagues. They go from one strategy to another with the latest being just sign players who were once big names, they lose large amounts of money each year but at least its covered by the owners who one day will realise its not working and they will never see a return and walk away.

The only way I can see it working at Dundee is the new ground which the Americans will own and they may get their money back that way. Even at the old firm its very hard to make a return in Scotland.

[ahemps]

On 11/03/2021 at 12:04, realmadrid said:

Yes a large investment could bring a team to be the best of the rest but they would fail UEFA FFP rules and look at the league cup final TV figures, 49000 people watched it, so they won't even see an uptake on sponsorship . 

Another club winning the league would be big news .... for one day, it could cost you about 20 to 30 million a season in wages , never mind the transfer fees and there is no way anyone could make any money in Scotland doing it, if it was possible someone would have done It by now.

It would never pay a return, you would only be doing it for the love of your team and the possibility of winning something but you would be paying for it.

Celtic and Rangers wages are around £54-£43m each. Aberdeen is around £8. Providing you get an amazing manager and you give him a wage resource of around £40m to compete then you would be £32m down already. If incredibly they won the league at the 1st attempt and got through to the CL group stages you may get £25m back but I'm sure a lot of that would be paid out in bonuses.

Also a team outwith the OF would probably have to pay a slight premium for a player as if it is the choice between them or Aberdeen for the same wage the player will go where he is guaranteed success so Aberdeen might have to offer more to get him.

Rangers and Celtic have backers though that might throw money at such a challenge meaning the potential backer has to up his investment as well. 

It can only happen if a Billionaire wants to wind up the OF but is happy to lose a few hundred million in the process. A sheikh or oil baron may do that in England or with PSG or Roma etc. but these are glamorous clubs/places. Scotland doesn't offer the same appeal.

[theboke]

I think it's the opposite of that.

It wouldn't take a massive investment to be consistently better than everyone outside of Celtic and Rangers.

Then just see how the head to heads with them turn out, to determine whether you finish 1, 2, or 3.

Any estimates as to the capacity of Easter Road, Tynecastle, Tannadice if the corners were filled in? 30k, 30k, 20k?

If our biggest clubs are Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, then Dundee United, then Dundee... who's next, by fan base?

8 ) St. Mirren

9) Partick

10) Killie 

11) Dunfermline

12) Motherwell

13) Falkirk

14) Morton

15) Ross County

16) St. Johnstone

17) Inverness

18) Raith Rovers

19) Ayr United

20) Queen of the South

21) Clyde

22) Hamilton

23) Airdrie

24) Livingston

25) Arbroath

26) Clydebank

27) Peterhead

28) Stirling

29) Elgin

30) Queen's Park

31) Pollok

32) Borrowstounness*

33) East Fife

34) 

✓ these are all of our full time or potential full time clubs because of the size of their fan base

× I know you're going to red dot this post but don't, don't be a dick

Edited March 14, 2021 by theboke
* Bo'ness (a contraction, not an abbreviation)

[GordonS]

On 10/03/2021 at 19:06, realmadrid said:

Why should Scotland ever be competitive in Europe ?

We already punch well above our weight .

 

We punch well below our weight. It only looks otherwise because of Celtic and Rangers, and I don't understand why anyone that's not a fan of either would care how well they do.

Clubs with similar attendances and revenues to Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs do much, much better in Europe than those three.

Next tier down and we're losing to part-timers from Wales and all sorts.

[GordonS]

On 07/03/2021 at 11:20, Darren44 said:

Question

We all want Scottish Football back to being competitive at least in Domestic game and Europe. But it never ever be. While lack of investment is on going. Scotland Outside two Glasgow clubs. Have Two Edinburgh Clubs, Two Dundee Clubs and Aberdeen. Strangely unlike Glasgow clubs local Business are unwilling to invest at the same level as the Two Glasgow Clubs.

While do clubs outside the two Glasgow clubs struggle so much to attract investment both local and worldwide. In terms of Football having Seven clubs competitive is good for the game.

Answer.

Dundee, Motherwell, Hearts, Gretna.

It doesn't work because you can't get back your investment. The market doesn't exist and you can't expand it enough.

English Premier League clubs get more TV money per match than you get for winning the league in Scotland.

[realmadrid]

18 hours ago, GordonS said:

We punch well below our weight. It only looks otherwise because of Celtic and Rangers, and I don't understand why anyone that's not a fan of either would care how well they do.

Clubs with similar attendances and revenues to Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs do much, much better in Europe than those three.

Next tier down and we're losing to part-timers from Wales and all sorts.

The coefficient is all you need to look at and we perform well above our weight

its impossible to use any other system

Club attendances now mean so little in the scheme of things, using that metric Aberdeen should have been able to outspend Bournemouth. 

You would need to take into account attendances and TV deals and sponsorship.

Due to the way the Scandinavian nations do their TV deals their clubs can get double the money we do in Scotland

As a non old firm fan it is worth caring how they do in Europe, the winners of this years Scottish cup or the team that finishes in 3rd place for one will benefit from group stage European football next winter. Without them we would also be set to just see our teams play in the conference league.

I agree about some of the results, my own team had 2 but the fans of Rosenborg and Luzern can say the same about us when we beat both of them one season apart.

[Stag Nation]

On 10/03/2021 at 20:27, jamamafegan said:

You never know, winning the league with another Scottish club would be massive news in European football

No, it really wouldn't.

[jamamafegan]

No, it really wouldn't.

Okay - perhaps not massive, but it would certainly be heard about and raise eyebrows i.e like when PAOK won the Greek Super League and FC Twente won the Eredivisie. These things do not go unnoticed.

[RandomGuy.]

On 12/03/2021 at 12:33, ahemps said:

It would never pay a return, you would only be doing it for the love of your team and the possibility of winning something but you would be paying for it.

Celtic and Rangers wages are around £54-£43m each.

This.

Celtic peaked this decade at a wage bill of £59.3m, with Rangers rising every season on their way towards that figure. If you accept any "3rd force" will have to pay higher wages than those two to beat them to players, you're looking at a wage bill of ~£65m.

They both spend ~£15m on players each season. So add that on, and you're looking at £80m just to compete with these teams. 

Aberdeen with the 3rd biggest matchday income are at £5m, with TV income of £3.4m. 

So thats a £80m spend, ignoring the staffing wages, with just £8.4m income. Think Rangers got around £7m for reaching the Europa Last 16 last season.

It just doesn't nearly add up. It would only be worth it if you reach the Champions League Quarters for about a decade straight, and to do that you'd have to vastly outspend Celtic/Rangers since theres only, usually, 1 or 2 spots to the qualifiers.

It would never make sense for anyone to chuck the amount of money needed at it.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, realmadrid said:

The coefficient is all you need to look at and we perform well above our weight

its impossible to use any other system

Club attendances now mean so little in the scheme of things, using that metric Aberdeen should have been able to outspend Bournemouth. 

You would need to take into account attendances and TV deals and sponsorship.

Due to the way the Scandinavian nations do their TV deals their clubs can get double the money we do in Scotland

As a non old firm fan it is worth caring how they do in Europe, the winners of this years Scottish cup or the team that finishes in 3rd place for one will benefit from group stage European football next winter. Without them we would also be set to just see our teams play in the conference league.

I agree about some of the results, my own team had 2 but the fans of Rosenborg and Luzern can say the same about us when we beat both of them one season apart.

The coefficient is almost entirely made up of Celtic and Rangers' points, which is what i was saying - take them out and we punch below our weight. 

I said attendance and revenues. Our second-rank clubs get beat by much less well resourced clubs from places like Cyprus. 

It could not matter less whether our normal clubs start in the first, second or third rounds of European competition. They're almost never beating their peers and they're regularly losing to smaller clubs. We have the odd shock result or decent season but it's not enough.

Aberdeen have played European football in each of the past five season. They have the same coefficient points (7.5) as The New Saints and less than F91 Dudelange of Luxembourg (who only played 4 seasons!), Zrinjski Mostar, Sheriff Tiraspol, NK Rijeka, Apollon Limassol, FC Fehérvár, Dundalk, Östersunds, Shkendija Tetovo, AEK Larnaca and Suduva Marijampole, among others. Molde have more points in one season than Aberdeen have in five. Among clubs that have played in all five season they have one of the very worst records.

The ranking points of the other Scottish clubs is considerably worse. Hibs are next best on 2.5 points gathered in 2 seasons, and no Scottish team outside the OF has managed more than 2 points in any season.

It's a sh*te state of affairs Tommy... 

[GordonS]

On 13/03/2021 at 18:57, theboke said:

I think it's the opposite of that.

It wouldn't take a massive investment to be consistently better than everyone outside of Celtic and Rangers.

Then just see how the head to heads with them turn out, to determine whether you finish 1, 2, or 3.

Any estimates as to the capacity of Easter Road, Tynecastle, Tannadice if the corners were filled in? 30k, 30k, 20k?

 

FWIW you couldn't fill in the corners at Tynecastle without taking the roof off of all four stands and replacing them with cantilevers, which would be vastly more expensive than could ever be worth it.

There are many problems in Scottish football. The stadiums being too small isn't one of them.

[realmadrid]

12 hours ago, GordonS said:

Aberdeen have played European football in each of the past five season. They have the same coefficient points (7.5) as The New Saints and less than F91 Dudelange of Luxembourg (who only played 4 seasons!), Zrinjski Mostar, Sheriff Tiraspol, NK Rijeka, Apollon Limassol, FC Fehérvár, Dundalk, Östersunds, Shkendija Tetovo, AEK Larnaca and Suduva Marijampole, among others. Molde have more points in one season than Aberdeen have in five. Among clubs that have played in all five season they have one of the very worst records.

 

If the New Saints or Dundalk were playing in the Europa league qualifying and not the Champions league or Aberdeen in the champions path they could get the points.

The champions league teams who then drop into the champions league path of the Europa league qualifying always have an easy route and thus pick up extra points along the way

Take this season Dundalk lose in the first round of the champions league to a team from Slovenia then get games against the champions of Andorra, Romania and then the Faroe Islands in the play off round.  Thus while Aberdeen go out to sporting Lisbon in the next round while Sporting are getting beat 4-1 at home by LASK from Austria Dundalk are playing KI from Faroe Islands. The system is set up to reward national champions and guarantee as many national champions play in the group stages , not necessarily the best teams.

[theboke]

18 hours ago, GordonS said:

FWIW you couldn't fill in the corners at Tynecastle without taking the roof off of all four stands and replacing them with cantilevers, which would be vastly more expensive than could ever be worth it.

There are many problems in Scottish football. The stadiums being too small isn't one of them.

Death to my hopes and dreams

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

Investments In Scottish Soccer Or English Football Compared -

 

I think there are 3 types of investment in Scottish and English Soccer;

 

1) Investments to make money.

 

2) Investments as a status symbol.

 

3) Charity Investments.

 

I think people have to be realistic about investment in Scottish football.

The only way we are going to get serious investments in Scottish soccer is if there is a way of giving return on those investments.

In England, there is the target to reaching the English Premier League which can open a team up to 100 million pounds a year TV deals and huge attendances and sponsorship deals.

So it make sense to invest tens of million pounds in a club if the reward is reaching the EPL, and making hundreds of millions of pounds a season.

While in Scotland to be realistic all we only have is a few million pound a year TV deals and maybe qualifying for the Champions League, or Europa League group stages.

But even Celtic and Rangers struggle to qualify for the group stages of the Champions League. So giving even 10 million pounds a year to a Scottish club smaller than Celtic or Rangers would still be difficult to qualify for the Champions League Group stages, or even finish above Celtic or Rangers.

I think we need to create a new cross border trophy for Scottish sides and teams from other countries that offer massive returns in financial revenue. I think a way to do this is for Scottish football to create a cross border trophy with teams from other countries such as an Atlantic League Cup. With smaller to medium sized nations in Europe, or Northern Africa or North America.

 

 

Now I will go over the 3 investment motivations in Scottish football;

1) Investments to make money.

The only way football clubs can make the money back is;

A) If they qualify for a league or European football run that earns them huge amounts of money back. Like in the English system clubs can earn 100 million pounds a year TV deals. Or in Europe teams can makes tens of millions in long European runs in the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League. But the problem is that it is difficult for Scottish clubs to find a reward system that will earn them a league or trophy that will earn them millions of pounds.

B) Developing great players to sell on for huge transfer deals. This could include developing youth players from their youth system, or making genius buy from Scotland or the World, that they can sell on for huge profits. But this is a difficult thing to do. Dundee, Airdrieonians and Hearts have tried that. And it did not really work. Because it is football alchemy to develop multi-million pound players and buy bargain buys who you can sell on for profits. You have to get lucky or have a genius in charge. And if you have a genius, some bigger club will probably come in for that genius individual.

 

In short, I think the only real way for Scottish football to offer returns on investment is for Scotland to create some sort of trophy with teams from other countries that could earn multi-million pound, or multi-million euro deals for loads of Scottish clubs.

 

 

2) Investments in soccer clubs as a status symbol.

Some people might invest in Scottish and English football as a status symbol. You also see billionaires buying up big American sports sides as a status symbol. Like the honour of owning the New York Yankees, or LA Galaxy, the LA Lakers. Or owning some great gridiron side like the Dallas Cowboys or Pittsburgh Steelers.

You see wealthy billionaires buying up horse stables and trying to increase their status with the rich. It is like buying a famous painting or a faberge egg,

Some even invest in sports clubs to whitewash moral failings. There are unscrupulous governments and billionaires who have invested in English soccer sides to whitewash their moral crimes. Such as human rights abuses and tyrannical business dealings.

Sometimes these people even invest in the surrounding area to develop the entire football region to improve their status and build a legacy.

It is difficult to imagine an Arabian trillionaire to invest in a small Scottish club as a status symbol.

 

3) Charity Investments.

Sometimes people even invest in football clubs like a charity. Like when Jack Walker gave a fortune to Blackburn Rovers. Or when the great Edinburgh-based philanthropist James Anderson gave a fortune to Scottish football. This is not like the status symbol investments. This is for purely charity reasons. This is a common occurrence in British football. Aberdeen, Blackburn Rovers, and Dundee have had what I would call charity donations given to them. Where the provider does not expect any return back.

 

 

Conclusion

I think if we want to attract investment in Scottish football, we need to have extra cross border trophies with small to medium sized football powers. Where all the Scottish clubs can enter a cross border trophy that allows all Scottish Premier sides guaranteed European football, in a group stage trophy., This would hopefully earn millions of pounds guaranteed for Scottish clubs. This would allow investors to invest in Scottish clubs and get return on their investments. I do not want Scottish football clubs to join the English League. As then people would think Scotland is part of England. I also do not think the English want Scottish clubs in their league.

I want the Scottish clubs to be strong and for there to be a strong league system. Where clubs are strong and investors can get return on their investments,

The English have created a soccer system where you could invest 10 million in a club get them promoted and then earn 100 million pound a year TV deals. Scottish football needs to have a system that offers return on investments.

 

[Stag Nation]

The English system you describe (spend £10 million in the hope of Premier League status) is not an investment, it's a gamble. Not many succeed.

I tend to agree with you about the problem, but not your solution. I can't see that such a cross-border competition would hold much attraction for TV or sponsors, or indeed the punters. Effectively a fourth-tier European trophy, where the likes of Hamilton or Ross County would play their counterparts from Luxembourg or Morocco.

[footnotes]

On 07/03/2021 at 11:20, Darren44 said:

Question

We all want Scottish Football back to being competitive at least in Domestic game and Europe. But it never ever be. While lack of investment is on going. Scotland Outside two Glasgow clubs. Have Two Edinburgh Clubs, Two Dundee Clubs and Aberdeen. Strangely unlike Glasgow clubs local Business are unwilling to invest at the same level as the Two Glasgow Clubs.

While do clubs outside the two Glasgow clubs struggle so much to attract investment both local and worldwide. In terms of Football having Seven clubs competitive is good for the game.

I think if you make attending football matches cheaper today then you make more money tomorrow.

When the media and sponsors can see greater numbers at games then they respond to the popularity by increasing their coverage and investment in the club, which leads to more public interest, which leads to greater attendances, and so on.

I know that there may be an immediate loss of revenue from reducing gate prices, but then greater numbers at the matches would be buying food, programmes and merchandise to balance out some of that loss.

Some of the new supporters will keep coming back anyway, butclubs would need to be patient as players tend to be a bit too nervous at the first full stadium and produce a poor game so consistently lower prices would be needed to reach a club's potential.

[Richey Edwards]

Whenever someone opens with "question", they're either going to ask a question or they're singing Independent Women by Destiny's Child.

[Stag Nation]

14 hours ago, footnotes said:

I think if you make attending football matches cheaper today then you make more money tomorrow.

When the media and sponsors can see greater numbers at games then they respond to the popularity by increasing their coverage and investment in the club, which leads to more public interest, which leads to greater attendances, and so on.

I know that there may be an immediate loss of revenue from reducing gate prices, but then greater numbers at the matches would be buying food, programmes and merchandise to balance out some of that loss.

Some of the new supporters will keep coming back anyway, butclubs would need to be patient as players tend to be a bit too nervous at the first full stadium and produce a poor game so consistently lower prices would be needed to reach a club's potential.

Any evidence for that? The reverse seems to apply when a lower-level club get a big cup-tie.

In any event, while lower gate prices might attract higher attendances it certainly won't happen overnight, and the idea of regular "full stadiums" is wishful thinking. Even if tickets were free.

[Lex]

The idea of someone 'investing' in my football club terrifies me tbh. Why are they investing? What do they want from their investment? A financial return? Ha, jeez.

No. 

Let's just spend what comes in.