The Hypothetical Roadmap to Getting Fans Back in the SPFL Grounds Discussion

[Loonytoons]

3 hours ago, johnnydun said:

Bollocks.

It's to encourage those without the vaccine to go and get it. Those 3 groups you mention can still pass it on as well as catch it. I would say that those who have had the vaccine are more likely to pass it on as they are more complacent.

 

You are about 3 times more likely to catch it if your unvaccinated and almost certainly will be carrying a higher viral load so more likely to pass it on.  Vaccinated people would have to be pretty obviously way more complacent to be more likely to pass it on.

[johnnydun]

2 minutes ago, Loonytoons said:

 

You are about 3 times more likely to catch it if your unvaccinated and almost certainly will be carrying a higher viral load so more likely to pass it on.  Vaccinated people would have to be pretty obviously way more complacent to be more likely to pass it on.

You would think so wouldn't you, but going by numbers, it's the vaccinated that have the majority of positive cases right now.

[Loonytoons]

Just now, johnnydun said:

You would think so wouldn't you, but going by numbers, it's the vaccinated that have the majority of positive cases right now.

Wonder why that is?

[Theyellowbox]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Haven't had it.

So your gripe is that you will miss out on going to the football because you have not had the vaccine not because of the logistics of enforcing it?

Apologies if you not having it is medical driven. Which raises an interesting problem, what happens to folk who cannot have the vaccine re getting into football vs those who choose not to. 

[johnnydun]

 

1 hour ago, Loonytoons said:

Wonder why that is?

Like I said, complacency imo.

[craigkillie]

You would think so wouldn't you, but going by numbers, it's the vaccinated that have the majority of positive cases right now.

Of course this is true, over 90% of adults have had the vaccine.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

You would think so wouldn't you, but going by numbers, it's the vaccinated that have the majority of positive cases right now.

Genuinely one of the most moronic posts I've seen on this site.

[johnnydun]

37 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Genuinely one of the most moronic posts I've seen on this site.

I beg to differ, because you have completely missed my point.

[Aim Here]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

 

Like I said, complacency imo.

Assuming you're not just playing at being stupid to reel us in, the main reason that there are more positive cases among the vaccinated is because vaccinated people vastly outnumber the unvaccinated. A small fraction of a very big number can be bigger than a big fraction of a small number.

Go back to whatever numbers you've been reading, try pro-rating the number of cases of vaccinated and unvaccinated people by the proportion of the population that has been vaccinated or otherwise and redo your analysis.

[Loonytoons]

Assuming you're not just playing at being stupid to reel us in, the main reason that there are more positive cases among the vaccinated is because vaccinated people vastly outnumber the unvaccinated. A small fraction of a very big number can be bigger than a big fraction of a small number.
Go back to whatever numbers you've been reading, try pro-rating the number of cases of vaccinated and unvaccinated people by the proportion of the population that has been vaccinated or otherwise and redo your analysis.

I also think he's at the capers, given the highest infected age groups are in the lowest double vaccinated age groups.

[Granny Danger]

It’s going to be fun when Div insists on vaccine passports for posting on P&B.

[Leith Green]

7 hours ago, Aim Here said:

Assuming you're not just playing at being stupid to reel us in, the main reason that there are more positive cases among the vaccinated is because vaccinated people vastly outnumber the unvaccinated. A small fraction of a very big number can be bigger than a big fraction of a small number.

Go back to whatever numbers you've been reading, try pro-rating the number of cases of vaccinated and unvaccinated people by the proportion of the population that has been vaccinated or otherwise and redo your analysis.

Even better, just let the ONS do the work for you - this mentions the baseline fallacy briefly but is mainly about deaths. The point is overwhelming.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/13/fully-vaccinated-people-account-for-12-of-englands-covid-19-deaths

[AJF]

I see there is now confirmation that booster shots of the covid vaccine will be offered this winter. I wonder if your covid passports will expire if you choose not to get a booster jab down the line if it gets offered to everyone.

Edited September 14, 2021 by AJF

[Theyellowbox]

1 hour ago, AJF said:

I see there is now confirmation that booster shots of the covid vaccine will be offered this winter. I wonder if your covid passports will expire if you choose not to get a booster jab down the line if it gets offered to everyone.

The covid passport has a year's end date on it anyway, so in reality, no one will have it expire until next August/September at the earliest.

You'd hope by then that either everyone is vaccinated and the most vulnerable boosted or we have found a better solution.

Ultimately, it will end up like the flu. Some will have a base imunity to it that means it is fairly minor illness and manageable and others will require a booster. Clearly no one knows yet how long or how we'll the vaccine will protect you for beyond a year.

What would be good to see (obviously backed up by science) would be to set a % of uptake where we can be comfortable that enough of the country is covered so that those, who for whatever reason cannot have the jag, can be at a lower risk. At that point, we shouldn't need any pasports for sporting events.

[Loonytoons]

The covid passport has a year's end date on it anyway, so in reality, no one will have it expire until next August/September at the earliest.
You'd hope by then that either everyone is vaccinated and the most vulnerable boosted or we have found a better solution.
Ultimately, it will end up like the flu. Some will have a base imunity to it that means it is fairly minor illness and manageable and others will require a booster. Clearly no one knows yet how long or how we'll the vaccine will protect you for beyond a year.
What would be good to see (obviously backed up by science) would be to set a % of uptake where we can be comfortable that enough of the country is covered so that those, who for whatever reason cannot have the jag, can be at a lower risk. At that point, we shouldn't need any pasports for sporting events.

Hasn't herd immunity for Covid been shot down due to the high breakthrough rates?

[Theyellowbox]

5 minutes ago, Loonytoons said:

 

 

 

Hasn't herd immunity for Covid been shot down due to the high breakthrough rates?

 

 

I don't mean heard immunity as such. I more mean if say 90% of the population are covered and may still get Covid, there is enough space in hospitals for other if they do get it to need treatment. Assuming the trend that vaccinated people get less ill and require less hospital treatment. Clearly the spread of the vaccine continues whether you have had the vaccine or not.

The heard immunity would have required everyone to actually catch it as opposed to a vaccine.

On the football, if you cannot get a vaccine because you have a medical reason not to, chances are you probably wouldn't be going to a game and putting yourself at risk anyway. 

[vikingTON]

35 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

What would be good to see (obviously backed up by science) would be to set a % of uptake where we can be comfortable that enough of the country is covered so that those, who for whatever reason cannot have the jag, can be at a lower risk. At that point, we shouldn't need any pasports for sporting events.

The onus should be on the government to provide this justification before imposing arbitrary restrictions on football games. As there is no explanation for how mandating vaccine passports will achieve this goal or even what that goal is, there is no justification for the policy. 

[Loonytoons]

I don't mean heard immunity as such. I more mean if say 90% of the population are covered and may still get Covid, there is enough space in hospitals for other if they do get it to need treatment. Assuming the trend that vaccinated people get less ill and require less hospital treatment. Clearly the spread of the vaccine continues whether you have had the vaccine or not.
The heard immunity would have required everyone to actually catch it as opposed to a vaccine.
On the football, if you cannot get a vaccine because you have a medical reason not to, chances are you probably wouldn't be going to a game and putting yourself at risk anyway. 

Herd immunity doesn't require everyone to catch it. Just enough people to be immune to it either through infection or vaccination.
An example of herd immunity is measles. This is because of vaccination not because everyone has caught it.

[AJF]

I see that the vaccine passports are also only available to those who have been vaccinated in Scotland. So if you're from another part of the UK, or you have now moved to Scotland, despite having received the EXACT same vaccines as us, then you cannot attend these venues in Scotland. Tell me again how this is designed to reduce the spread?

Edited September 14, 2021 by AJF

[Theyellowbox]

30 minutes ago, AJF said:

I see that the vaccine passports are also only available to those who have been vaccinated in Scotland. So if you're from another part of the UK, or you have now moved to Scotland, despite having received the EXACT same vaccines as us, then you cannot attend these venues in Scotland. Tell me again how this is designed to reduce the spread?

You would have to ask the question of why during a pandemic folk should be travelling cross borders for a football game?

You are finding fault for faults sake. How many folk going to say a Rangers vs Motherwell game will have had their vaccine in England, moved to Scotland and now could not go as a result of this? Answer is probably less than have been banned from Ibrox in the last few weeks due to racist/sectarian singing.

As to how it reduces the spread? On its own it doesn't as such, but if it forces reluctant people to get it, then we all benefit. Where I think your points lead to is that there has to be some mechanism where by exceptional cases can still be granted access. 

On the other hand, if you are a totally fuckwit who refuses to get a vaccine because of 5g, swollen Trinidadian bollocks or Bill Gates sticking chips in it, then you don't need a passport for a football game, you need one for a loony bin.