The Hypothetical Roadmap to Getting Fans Back in the SPFL Grounds Discussion

[scmwell]

Are they not going to get that anyway once they check your vaccination passport? I would rather it was done away from the match than having to queue up in the pissing rain before a game

[invergowrie arab]

1 minute ago, scmwell said:

Are they not going to get that anyway once they check your vaccination passport? I would rather it was done away from the match than having to queue up in the pissing rain before a game

I wouldn't have thought so.

I would imagine it's a visual check by a steward. Holding the data will end up in all sorts of headache for clubs.

That said I have already queried why Utd feel the need to hold half the data they do on me and their protocols for managing the data to which I received no reply.

I'm a barrel of laughs 

[scmwell]

[invergowrie arab]

Just to be completely pedantic and boring because that's what I enjoy it's really not as simple as saying- just do this.

I know from painful recent experience from putting in place data processing protocols that even a visual check by a steward of your personal data would require a data processing protocol to be in place so that there was comeback if for example a steward decided to write on FB that Invergowrie Arab is double jabbed.

That's reasonably easily implemented where the club employees the stewards. Where the club contract with a third party that would likely need to form part of a contract or terms of agreement between the parties and the employees of the contractor trained on the protocol.

Not impossible by any means but equally not as simple as maybe someone in govt think.

[johnnydun]

37 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Just to be completely pedantic and boring because that's what I enjoy it's really not as simple as saying- just do this.

I know from painful recent experience from putting in place data processing protocols that even a visual check by a steward of your personal data would require a data processing protocol to be in place so that there was comeback if for example a steward decided to write on FB that Invergowrie Arab is double jabbed.

That's reasonably easily implemented where the club employees the stewards. Where the club contract with a third party that would likely need to form part of a contract or terms of agreement between the parties and the employees of the contractor trained on the protocol.

Not impossible by any means but equally not as simple as maybe someone in govt think.

Fancy getting double jabbed outside Tannadump on Sunday?

[Leith Green]

24 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

Fancy getting double jabbed outside Tannadump on Sunday?

Sounds like something you cut and pasted off Grinder 

[Theyellowbox]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

I wouldn't have thought so.

I would imagine it's a visual check by a steward. Holding the data will end up in all sorts of headache for clubs.

That said I have already queried why Utd feel the need to hold half the data they do on me and their protocols for managing the data to which I received no reply.

I'm a barrel of laughs 

And that is the reality of the checks. They will be done by a normal steward, who will quite frankly barely check them, so cannot see the issue.

On your point on the club holding personal data, I always find the argument about clubs, government or tech companies holding your data being some terrible thing, really odd.

What, are you concerned that Utd holding data on you means that Paul Hegarty is going to be dispatched to rake through your bins to see how many of the pizzas you bough you actually ate or that the club is going to dispatch Jerren Nixon to wade through your financials to see if you were in the trades last week? I mean, they probably at best have your age, address and e-mail. All stuff folk give up freely on social media anyway. Shock horror, Utd might now know you support Dundee United and have done for years? Lol

On the vaccine pasport, it doesn't give any medical info aside from that you had both jabs and when you had them.

 

[Granny Danger]

7 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

And that is the reality of the checks. They will be done by a normal steward, who will quite frankly barely check them, so cannot see the issue.

On your point on the club holding personal data, I always find the argument about clubs, government or tech companies holding your data being some terrible thing, really odd.

What, are you concerned that Utd holding data on you means that Paul Hegarty is going to be dispatched to rake through your bins to see how many of the pizzas you bough you actually ate or that the club is going to dispatch Jerren Nixon to wade through your financials to see if you were in the trades last week? I mean, they probably at best have your age, address and e-mail. All stuff folk give up freely on social media anyway. Shock horror, Utd might now know you support Dundee United and have done for years? Lol

On the vaccine pasport, it doesn't give any medical info aside from that you had both jabs and when you had them.

 

Stevie May frequently rakes through my bins so I have no real issue with Paul Hegarty having a go, though I think bin raking is probably below him.

[invergowrie arab]

17 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

And that is the reality of the checks. They will be done by a normal steward, who will quite frankly barely check them, so cannot see the issue.

On your point on the club holding personal data, I always find the argument about clubs, government or tech companies holding your data being some terrible thing, really odd.

What, are you concerned that Utd holding data on you means that Paul Hegarty is going to be dispatched to rake through your bins to see how many of the pizzas you bough you actually ate or that the club is going to dispatch Jerren Nixon to wade through your financials to see if you were in the trades last week? I mean, they probably at best have your age, address and e-mail. All stuff folk give up freely on social media anyway. Shock horror, Utd might now know you support Dundee United and have done for years? Lol

On the vaccine pasport, it doesn't give any medical info aside from that you had both jabs and when you had them.

 

My specific query was when they contracted out online ticket sales to a company in Dublin and I had to hand over name, email,  postal address, DoB and mobile number in order to purchase the tickets.

At least 3 of those things aren't necessary to sell someone a QR code. It wasn't clear who controllled the data, DUFC or the Third Party and there was no GPDR statement on the website.

Specifically what I'm "worried" about is spam phone calls and emails arising from Third Party based outside the UK I have no relationship with selling my details on.

I don't have a moral objection to the monetizing of personal data. Just that it's my data and I should be the one monetizing it.

The FB thing that gets thrown up is a shite example. FB are a providing a service and your data is what you buy the service with.

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Fancy getting double jabbed outside Tannadump on Sunday?

I'll be in hospitality and I don't think my matalan suit would handle the exertions 

[Theyellowbox]

33 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Stevie May frequently rakes through my bins so I have no real issue with Paul Hegarty having a go, though I think bin raking is probably below him.

Stevie May would aim for your bin, but completely miss it and probably rake through your neighbours.

[Theyellowbox]

24 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

My specific query was when they contracted out online ticket sales to a company in Dublin and I had to hand over name, email,  postal address, DoB and mobile number in order to purchase the tickets.

At least 3 of those things aren't necessary to sell someone a QR code. It wasn't clear who controllled the data, DUFC or the Third Party and there was no GPDR statement on the website.

Specifically what I'm "worried" about is spam phone calls and emails arising from Third Party based outside the UK I have no relationship with selling my details on.

I don't have a moral objection to the monetizing of personal data. Just that it's my data and I should be the one monetizing it.

The FB thing that gets thrown up is a shite example. FB are a providing a service and your data is what you buy the service with.

So my point stands. What is the concern with a steward seeing your covid passport? No real info on there other than the sensible choice to live in glorious perthshire.

My point on Facebook is folk regularly give up pretty much every detail of their lives yet complain when they are asked for any of the info elsewhere.

 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Clubs cannot control fan behaviour outside the stadium, but they can and should inside the stadium, but they do not. If Doncaster was actually pro active on anything else in Scottish football, he would be credible, but he is not.
The clubs are (via Doncaster) moaning about it because they do not want the financial or operational cost of it, which is lazy as in the long run it could/should save clubs cash.
For example, there will be clubs out there not fully on board with digital tickets. This is probably the push they need to get it over the line. If,Saints as an example were to install new turnstiles set further back from the stand, we would have a bigger space inside the stadium, ie post turnstiles to have more food outlets. Motherwell and Dundee have in their away ends the ability to have turnstiles set away from the stand. 
The argument that it will take longer for fans to get in or you cannot be asking them to turn up earlier is lazy and incorrect too. To scan your QR code to get in will take, what 2 extra seconds? 5 at a max? Pre barcode tickets it took longer than that to get your change ffs. If fans are told to turn up in alloted times say even half an hour earlier than usual, then either they do that ( and blues make more money from pie sales etc) or to be honest, if they turn up later and miss part of the game, then their own fault and no sympathy.
Clubs need to grow a pair and just get on with it and fans need to see it for what it is, another wee inconvenience to allow fans to keep going to games safely. 

Your argument here is that clubs should treat their fans and customers like shit.

And scanning an extra QR code does not take 2 seconds. Scanning any code is going to take time, see the last Scotland game for long queues and people being held up for over 20 minutes after the game started.

If it was just scanning a code then the whole thing is worthless anyway. If there is no check on whether the person who has the code is who they say they are any anti-Vaxxer will get a mate to give them their code, 2 second scan and you are in. Which is why the whole thing is pointless.

It is like a worse version of test and trace. Folk signing into pubs could put anything but at least the people who complied were getting something out of it if they were alerted to being exposed.

Even easy stuff like a unvaxxed 19 year old turns up, says they are 17 and they get in.

Aye lets spend thousands building new turnstile for covid security theatre.

[invergowrie arab]

49 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

So my point stands. What is the concern with a steward seeing your covid passport? No real info on there other than the sensible choice to live in glorious perthshire.

My point on Facebook is folk regularly give up pretty much every detail of their lives yet complain when they are asked for any of the info elsewhere.

 

I don't care if they see it but the point is legally clubs will have to ensure protocols are in place, and staff trained in the processing of personal data and risk astronomical fines if they aren't place - even if no breach. 

This is unlikely to be in place currently as stewards don't process personal data.

As I said, not insurmountable but still a ballache for clubs.

[Theyellowbox]

1 hour ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

 

Your argument here is that clubs should treat their fans and customers like shit.

And scanning an extra QR code does not take 2 seconds. Scanning any code is going to take time, see the last Scotland game for long queues and people being held up for over 20 minutes after the game started.

If it was just scanning a code then the whole thing is worthless anyway. If there is no check on whether the person who has the code is who they say they are any anti-Vaxxer will get a mate to give them their code, 2 second scan and you are in. Which is why the whole thing is pointless.

It is like a worse version of test and trace. Folk signing into pubs could put anything but at least the people who complied were getting something out of it if they were alerted to being exposed.

Even easy stuff like a unvaxxed 19 year old turns up, says they are 17 and they get in.

Aye lets spend thousands building new turnstile for covid security theatre.

 

Why is it treating fans like shit? You ask them to come earlier, keep the government happy and make some extra sales out of it. Is it any different to what is currently done?

If there is some anti vaxxer desperate to get in, they will find a way, but the reality is that the odds of there being many is small, the odds of having many unvaccinated fans is small and the potential financial costs to the clubs is small in comparison to to other running costs.

My argument is for something pretty straight forward to roll out and given 90%+ fans have already had vaccines, its a strange hill to die on in terms of throwing toys out of pram vs government.

I disagree re the time to scan a code. Our season and matchday tickets (and I suspect most teams) are already codes, so the time taken is to scan 2 codes vs one. Literally seconds unless you cannot either operate technology or hold a piece of paper still. In fact it's the whole reason the pie stall have gone cashless as it speeds the whole thing up. There is not a stadium in the world where it would take more time to scan 2 codes vs someone paying cash at a turnstile then getting their change counted.

Let's be honest, it's 2 clubs having a pop at the government for different reasons. One in particular has non footballing reasons to kick up a fuss.

The only reason I can see a fan having an issue is if they are some strange anti vaccine conspiracy theorist, in which case the wi fi at stadiums and phone masts at a few must be a cause gor concern...

 

 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

40 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Why is it treating fans like shit? You ask them to come earlier, keep the government happy and make some extra sales out of it. Is it any different to what is currently done?

Force your fans to sit in a freezing cold stand for an extra half hour so you can get a bovril sale out of it. And how does that work for midweek games when plenty of folk are barely making it from work and having dinner to make the game. Tough enjoy your long queues and missing the start of the game.

45 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

If there is some anti vaxxer desperate to get in, they will find a way, but the reality is that the odds of there being many is small, the odds of having many unvaccinated fans is small and the potential financial costs to the clubs is small in comparison to to other running costs.

Anti-vaxxers will get in anyway

unvaccinated number of fans is small

So what is the point of the vaccine passport? To stop a tiny number of people, doesn't seem worth the hassle especially when the disruption created is an additional vector for covid infection.

[Theyellowbox]

24 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Force your fans to sit in a freezing cold stand for an extra half hour so you can get a bovril sale out of it. And how does that work for midweek games when plenty of folk are barely making it from work and having dinner to make the game. Tough enjoy your long queues and missing the start of the game.

Anti-vaxxers will get in anyway

unvaccinated number of fans is small

So what is the point of the vaccine passport? To stop a tiny number of people, doesn't seem worth the hassle especially when the disruption created is an additional vector for covid infection.

The point of the passport is to protect both the fans who are vaccinated already, but also the unvaccinated children and folk who cannot medically be vaccinated.

In terms of sitting in a cold stadium, a) it will be restricted to effectively 5 teams, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Celtic and Aberdeen. Probably over 4-5 months if that. So what maybe 30-40 impacted games? b) those games where it will be so cold to be able to sit will be very few and far between and c) if it is a game that is midweek and previous games have been shown to need a longer lead time, then we can move the kick off half an hour.

Look, I'm not in any way saying the passports are perfect or will even solves the rising infection rates, but it is going to be required as part of a wider solution or the danger will be stadium closures again, which no one wants.

Go the other way, do nothing, let the winter and obvious spike come and then the measures required will be much worse.

Of course, I take your point that the government couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, but as soon as football realises it needs to play ball and at least seen to be complying and/or finding solutions, the quicker we will all get back to normality and the clubs and authorities can focus in the important stuff on the pitch and the important stuff off the pitch. I just make the point that going to war with the government may cause the gloves to come off a bit and the government may take stricter measures on the problems the clubs and football authorities seem unwilling to tackle in any meaningful way. Great for everyone else, not great for some if the clubs moaning the most about this. 

[johnnydun]

52 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

The point of the passport is to protect both the fans who are vaccinated already, but also the unvaccinated children and folk who cannot medically be vaccinated.

Bollocks.

It's to encourage those without the vaccine to go and get it. Those 3 groups you mention can still pass it on as well as catch it. I would say that those who have had the vaccine are more likely to pass it on as they are more complacent.

[Theyellowbox]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Bollocks.

It's to encourage those without the vaccine to go and get it. Those 3 groups you mention can still pass it on as well as catch it. I would say that those who have had the vaccine are more likely to pass it on as they are more complacent.

Yes, that's true, it's also a stick to encourage vaccine take up.

On the complacency, are you saying you are more complacent since you have had the vaccine? I know I'm not.

[johnnydun]

54 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Yes, that's true, it's also a stick to encourage vaccine take up.

On the complacency, are you saying you are more complacent since you have had the vaccine? I know I'm not.

Haven't had it.