The Hypothetical Roadmap to Getting Fans Back in the SPFL Grounds Discussion

[Pull My Strings]

1 hour ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

How  did  that get past the filter and my one didn't?

Two tier system, innit. It's a fucking travesty and no mistake.

[invergowrie arab]

47 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Good to see that civil liberties are only important to some people when it's things they think are right. Anything which creates a two-tier society like this is fundamentally a bad thing - even if you think that people are wrong not to get vaccines, that is not a good enough reason to shut them out of whole chunks of society.

There are all sorts of things where people have their civil liberties restricted because society deems it necessary /desirable to do so.

Not getting the vaccine for those targeted here is a choice not a protected characteristic 

I'm more uncomfortable that once again football clubs seem to be at the forefront of trying to solve societies ills and will be expected to Police this.

 

[AJF]

11 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

It's not all about you. That's what civic responsibility means

Having said that

The more people are vaccinated in your community the lower the chance of you vaccine having to do anything which means the low risk of failure is lowered further so it is functionally equivalent to making it better.

On a more global level the more that can be done to prevent transmission the slower the appearance of new variants prolonging the effectiveness of current vaccines again functionally equivalent to making it better.

 

I never said it was all about me - I used the figurative "me" when I could have substituted it for any vaccinated person.

Given that:

• The majority of the population have been vaccinated
• The vaccine limits and even eliminates symptoms for those that have been vaccinated meaning those that display worse symptoms (people that have not been vaccinated) are more likely to know they have it
• There is still a requirement to self isolate if you display symptoms, and
• The vaccine does not prevent transmission

Then can it not be argued that you are more likely to be infected with Covid by a vaccinated person?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

15 minutes ago, AJF said:

I never said it was all about me - I used the figurative "me"

 

Well read the “you” in my post as the figurative “you” then. 

 

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Any measure that is prejudiced against the Old Firm and rugby fans is OK with me 

 

3 hours ago, AJF said:

I am sure fans of Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen will also be impacted.

And what of those fans that have decided that getting the vaccination is not for them?

 

3 hours ago, Gorgie greatness said:

If it’s 10K crowds that excluded a few diddies on here

It will almost certainly be rolled out more widely than just Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen, for 2 reasons.

Firstly some major figures in the game are potentially keen on it, and are therefore likely to favour a wider adoption.

Secondly any club with prospects of such crowds at some point in the season - home games v OF, derbies, a big cup-tie, etc. - are going to need the systems and procedures in place, while others will worry about being caught cold if the government drop the threshold from 10k; and if you invest in the setup and develop the system you'll use it. It would not surprise me to see this become widespread in the Premiership, and potentially even seen in the Championship. There also seems to be no suggestion this is temporary e.g. only for 3 or 6 months: it will be subject to 3-weekly review, but that hasn't stopped various measures being in place for months on end - even more than a year - and is too short notice to react.

Edited September 1, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[Leith Green]

1 hour ago, kingjoey said:

They could go and watch Killie at Rugby Park. 

Isnt shutting them out of mainstream society enough of a stick without torture as well?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

20 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Secondly any club with prospects of such crowds at some point in the season - home games v OF, derbies, a big cup-tie, etc. - are going to need the systems and procedures in place,

EDIT: Post contains facutal mistake, already pointed out and acknowledged, no need for further response.

There are only 4 others in  the top flight with capacity for 10,000+ and the prospect of that happening looks pretty remote and exceeding it by a big margin is even more so.
 

United haven't hit 5 figures  since  playing Hibs in the championship in  2016 in front of (10,925)

The  last time it happened at Dens was December 2003 against Rangers (10,948)

At Fir Park it's Celtic in September 2012 (10,496)

McDiarmid park can officially take 10,740. I couldn't find the last time they got near that but it's been a long , long time

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Sarto Mutiny]

38 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

There are only 4 others in  the top flight with capacity for 10,000+ and the prospect of that happening looks pretty remote and exceeding it by a big margin is even more so.
 

United haven't hit 5 figures  since  playing Hibs in the championship in  2016 in front of (10,925)

The  last time it happened at Dens was December 2003 against Rangers (10,948)

At Fir Park it's Celtic in September 2012 (10,496)

McDiarmid park can officially take 10,740. I couldn't find the last time they got near that but it's been a long , long time

 

 

Er, no. Not even close. The two Dundee derbies at Tannadice in 2019/20 both had 10k+ crowds - the 6-2 game in August had 14,108 spectators and the 1-1 draw in December had 14,007. All things being equal, the derby on the 19th of September would almost certainly have more than 10,000 spectators.

[Pull My Strings]

4 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Er, no. Not even close. The two Dundee derbies at Tannadice in 2019/20 both had 10k+ crowds - the 6-2 game in August had 14,108 spectators and the 1-1 draw in December had 14,007. All things being equal, the derby on the 19th of September would almost certainly have more than 10,000 spectators.

Yeah, I was just looking that up because sounded like nonsense. 2004 apparently since a Dundee derby had less than 10,000 fans. 

[craigkillie]

The New Year Ayrshire derby would have the potential to have over 10k I'd imagine.

[HibeeJibee]

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Good to see that civil liberties are only important to some people when it's things they think are right. Anything which creates a two-tier society like this is fundamentally a bad thing - even if you think that people are wrong not to get vaccines, that is not a good enough reason to shut them out of whole chunks of society.

 

2 hours ago, AJF said:

I just can't understand the reasoning for introducing it. They have stated it is to control the spread of the virus heading into Autumn and Winter, but the vaccine does not prevent transmission. Additionally, infection rates have been rising for a considerable period but is not deemed a major concern because deaths and serious illness has fallen compared to the period before vaccines were introduced.

The vaccine of course reduces the seriousness of symptoms, but those unvaccinated are already extremely unlikely to develop serious or life-threatening symptoms. If they have chosen not to get vaccinated for whatever reason, then they are accepting the higher degree of risk, but they are not putting those who are vaccinated at any greater risk by doing so I've always believed being vaccinated is a positive thing and am double-jabbed myself, but I don't think those that are not are in any way inferior and don't believe these measures are acceptable.

 

2 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The vaccine passport stuff is pointless in the case of stopping transmission (which is supposed to be the point) since being vaccinated neither stops you catchxing the virus or spreading the virus.

 

1 hour ago, AJF said:

My vaccine doesn't become any better because someone else gets vaccinated though. Vaccine passports serve no purpose to further protect those that have already been vaccinated.

Today's announcement has fairly little to do with actually making these events "safer". We know around 18 in 20 adults have been already jabbed... infact today's ONS survey shows 19 in 20 have some protection, as half the rest have already been exposed to it naturally... plus many of the remaining 1 in 20 are unable to have it/exempt/will refuse to get it whatever carrot & stick is used. We know people who have been jabbed can still catch it. We know people can still pass it on. We know some settings, particularly outdoor, are lower risk. So it is not going to majorly affect what transmission occurs at football games nor its consequences.

It's not about keeping those 2 in 20 apart either. Live sport, concerts, gigs and nightclubs are niche activites. Only about 2% of Scotland's population watch football in person each weekend.

Firstly, the government want to be seen to be doing something, but aren't willing or able to introduce other restrictions. Secondly, they hope it'll make more of the remaining 2 in 20 take the jab, as they face being frozen out of some activites if they don't - in particular pockets of society where uptake is lower: such as teenagers and 20-somethings, ethnic minorities and deprived communities. (Even if they don't go to sport, concerts, festivals or clubs they might fear this list growing in future). Thirdly, it's an attempt to reassure people who have been jabbed themself but still don't want to be around others who haven't. Fourthly, in any difficult situation a government craves control - even if it is not too clear what it achieves nor what to use it for - and this has considerable scope for expansion: you can raise or lower the limits; reduce its application or widen it into churches, cinemas, pubs, restaurants, shops; use it to make people get boosted; etc. etc.

Unsurprisingly many people consider these justifications outweighed by the negative effects and implications of the policy - ethically, socially and practically.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

30 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Er, no. Not even close. The two Dundee derbies at Tannadice in 2019/20 both had 10k+ crowds - the 6-2 game in August had 14,108 spectators and the 1-1 draw in December had 14,007. All things being equal, the derby on the 19th of September would almost certainly have more than 10,000 spectators.

That's what I get for trusting fitbastats

Edited September 1, 2021 by topcat(The most tip top)

[The Master]

28 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Er, no. Not even close. The two Dundee derbies at Tannadice in 2019/20 both had 10k+ crowds - the 6-2 game in August had 14,108 spectators and the 1-1 draw in December had 14,007. All things being equal, the derby on the 19th of September would almost certainly have more than 10,000 spectators.

We had 10,718 when we won the Championship in 2014, which I don’t think has been beaten since (derbies have hovered around that number but not above). 

[Derry Alli]

An absolute shitshow. Sooner this government is fucking binned the better. 

[Sarto Mutiny]

1 hour ago, The Master said:

We had 10,718 when we won the Championship in 2014, which I don’t think has been beaten since (derbies have hovered around that number but not above). 

According to the Arab Archive, the most recent derby at Dens in 2019 had a crowd of 11,233

[invergowrie arab]

2 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Er, no. Not even close. The two Dundee derbies at Tannadice in 2019/20 both had 10k+ crowds - the 6-2 game in August had 14,108 spectators and the 1-1 draw in December had 14,007. All things being equal, the derby on the 19th of September would almost certainly have more than 10,000 spectators.

Changed my mind about this now 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Was I right about Motherwell or did I make a complete arse of the job?

[HibsFan]

Because if there's one thing that the SNP needs, it's more control over what kind of person is allowed inside a football stadium.

[Leith Green]

4 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Was I right about Motherwell or did I make a complete arse of the job?

Depends what you said - did you mention that Hamilton is a bigger town?

[CanadianDee]

18 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

There are only 4 others in  the top flight with capacity for 10,000+ and the prospect of that happening looks pretty remote and exceeding it by a big margin is even more so.
 

United haven't hit 5 figures  since  playing Hibs in the championship in  2016 in front of (10,925)

The  last time it happened at Dens was December 2003 against Rangers (10,948)

At Fir Park it's Celtic in September 2012 (10,496)

McDiarmid park can officially take 10,740. I couldn't find the last time they got near that but it's been a long , long time

 

 

That isnae right mate as far as Dundee goes anyway. I'm not going to dig them all out, but we've had 3 games of around 11k just the from 2017 to 2019 alone. I didn't go back any further because I don't have time, but you get the point - although not the norm obviously it certainly isn't that rare.