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Null & Void or an 18 Game Season?


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15 minutes ago, Uncle Chief said:

I suspect championship clubs would want a “level playing field” in terms of season ending at same time, player fitness and suspensions. Although not ideal a split looks the best of both worlds, at least champ clubs had the option to sign players in the window, l1 £ l2 clubs were hardly going to do so as they couldn’t immediately furlough them.

The odds are massively tipped in their favour with an extra £350k to fritter away this year. They had players playing regularly all the way through so fitness will be no issue. 

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20 minutes ago, Uncle Chief said:

I suspect championship clubs would want a “level playing field” in terms of season ending at same time, player fitness and suspensions. Although not ideal a split looks the best of both worlds, at least champ clubs had the option to sign players in the window, l1 £ l2 clubs were hardly going to do so as they couldn’t immediately furlough them.

How does a split look better than just playing 18 games? 

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10 minutes ago, latapythelegend said:

The odds are massively tipped in their favour with an extra £350k to fritter away this year. They had players playing regularly all the way through so fitness will be no issue. 

So you're now claiming that Championship clubs should have all spent their government grant money on better players, rather than providing for their own financial security in the middle of a pandemic? Stunning logic.

FWIW I fail to see how a split would address any 'concerns' that Championship clubs would have - although none of these 'concerns' have actually been set out so I wouldn't be surprised if the media is tilting at windmills here. Other than failing to finish at the required time to actually hold play-offs I don't think those would be any justified grounds for complaint.

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26 minutes ago, Uncle Chief said:

I suspect championship clubs would want a “level playing field” in terms of season ending at same time, player fitness and suspensions. Although not ideal a split looks the best of both worlds, at least champ clubs had the option to sign players in the window, l1 £ l2 clubs were hardly going to do so as they couldn’t immediately furlough them.

Not getting at you personally, but that argument from Championship clubs can get itself right in the sea. Its clearly not going to be a level playing field  - they're still playing, and match fit, we've been stopped for weeks!  If they have to wait a week or two while we finish up, what's the big deal? We've waited 2 months!  And further to that, there's the bye week in the play-offs, which is always seen as a big bonus  for the team in the higher league - "gives the team a rest, time to re-charge after a long season" - while the 3/4th teams play against each other first.  That's another advantage in the Championship column.   

I suspect those most uncomfortable about this would be Alloa, Morten and Arbroath. Fancy that. 

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7 minutes ago, virginton said:

So you're now claiming that Championship clubs should have all spent their government grant money on better players, rather than providing for their own financial security in the middle of a pandemic? Stunning logic.

FWIW I fail to see how a split would address any 'concerns' that Championship clubs would have - although none of these 'concerns' have actually been set out so I wouldn't be surprised if the media is tilting at windmills here. Other than failing to finish at the required time to actually hold play-offs I don't think those would be any justified grounds for complaint.

Not wanting to go over old ground but the 500k covers financial security and then some when it's covering part time clubs and smaller full time clubs. Coupled with the income still coming in from match streaming, whilst teams at this level are left twiddling their thumbs, they are hardly potless at the moment. 

Still looking for the point where I mention "clubs should have all spent their government grant money on better players".

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The problem mooted previously for Championship clubs was that the play-off dates would need to be adhered to. It therefore makes no sense to ask clubs to fit in 22 league games instead of 18 when you're working with a very restricted time table. There's not much making sense about these reports.

And yet you still think this is the best and fairest system for Scottish football?
It’s obvious to anyone here that Championship clubs are trying to unduly influence something that should not be of relevance to avoid relegation....
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1 minute ago, roman_bairn said:


And yet you still think this is the best and fairest system for Scottish football?
It’s obvious to anyone here that Championship clubs are trying to unduly influence something that should not be of relevance to avoid relegation....

I think you have spoke complete nonsense on here throughout this, however, you are entirely correct. I'd hope the L1/L2 clubs release a strongly worded statement telling the Championship teams that it's none of their business.

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7 minutes ago, latapythelegend said:

Not wanting to go over old ground but the 500k covers financial security and then some when it's covering part time clubs and smaller full time clubs. Coupled with the income still coming in from match streaming, whilst teams at this level are left twiddling their thumbs, they are hardly potless at the moment. 

If the £500k grant more than covers financial security then we'd probably have a permanent manager and chief executive for a start.  Streaming revenue is not equivalent to matchday revenue, loss of hospitality etc. and as per yesterday's piss-poor roadmap, there is still no credible basis on which to expect crowds to return to games. 

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Still looking for the point where I mention "clubs should have all spent their government grant money on better players".

You said that 'the odds are massively tipped in their favour by having an extra £350k to fritter away - that's quite clearly bollocks. If that money is needed to keep the lights on while playing - as opposed to sitting on furlough - then there is little to no overall benefit. Which even a cursory look at the squads of the bottom half of the Championship would have already confirmed.

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2 minutes ago, virginton said:

If the £500k grant more than covers financial security then we'd probably have a permanent manager and chief executive for a start.  Streaming revenue is not equivalent to matchday revenue, loss of hospitality etc. and as per yesterday's piss-poor roadmap, there is still no credible basis on which to expect crowds to return to games. 

You said that 'the odds are massively tipped in their favour by having an extra £350k to fritter away - that's quite clearly bollocks. If that money is needed to keep the lights on while playing - as opposed to sitting on furlough - then there is little to no overall benefit. Which even a cursory look at the squads of the bottom half of the Championship would have already confirmed.

So when your club said prior to the season starting that it would be able to complete the season with the realisation that there may be no fans at all (as did every other SPFL club), that was a complete lie? Considering the 500k handout wasn't suggested at this point, your club surely must have had cash to see you through until at least may? 

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28 minutes ago, Dennistoun Bairn said:

Not getting at you personally, but that argument from Championship clubs can get itself right in the sea. Its clearly not going to be a level playing field  - they're still playing, and match fit, we've been stopped for weeks!  If they have to wait a week or two while we finish up, what's the big deal? We've waited 2 months!  And further to that, there's the bye week in the play-offs, which is always seen as a big bonus  for the team in the higher league - "gives the team a rest, time to re-charge after a long season" - while the 3/4th teams play against each other first.  That's another advantage in the Championship column.   

I suspect those most uncomfortable about this would be Alloa, Morten and Arbroath. Fancy that. 

That bye week thing you are talking about doesn't apply in champ/L1 playoffs.

It's 9th v 4th and 2nd v 3rd, with the winners playing off thereafter.

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If Alloa etc have an issue with hanging around after their season has finished to play in playoffs, they have a bit of an argument there (unless it’s just a week or 2, we haven’t stepped foot on a training ground in 2 months ffs).

If they’re trying to say that our season only being 18 games means teams can’t get promoted from that league? Get in the bin. That would go far far beyond anything that happened at the end of last season. 

As viking ton says though this is all just rumour. Should know more by tonight. 

Edited by bairn88
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1 minute ago, roman_bairn said:


And yet you still think this is the best and fairest system for Scottish football?
It’s obvious to anyone here that Championship clubs are trying to unduly influence something that should not be of relevance to avoid relegation....

I think it's a hell of a lot fairer than the "independent panel doing whatever the f**k they like" abomination you're after, yes. The joy of our current system is that even if Championship clubs want something like this they need a majority to agree to it as well, they can't simply refuse promotion off their own back. Given there are at least 20 clubs that would absolutely oppose this it's safe to say what Championship clubs want and what Championship clubs get may well be very different things, thanks to our wonderful democracy. 

Of course, this could all be media driven bullshit and Championship clubs aren't saying anything of the sort. It'll come out in the wash though and if they have been trying to influence this division with this stuff then I expect they'll be told where to go. 

In your wee independent panel world, what do League 1 & 2 clubs do when The Panel decides 18/22 games isn't enough to decide promotion and ends it there and then? I don't come back with any "there's nothing to say an independent panel would do that", I'm asking you a hypothetical question.

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If the Championship clubs want to make an argument that promotion should only take place if the leagues have played a similar number of games, then I assume they'll also be happy to cancel the Premiership play-offs and keep Hearts for another year? The difference between and 18 game L1 season and a 27 game Championship season is still smaller than the difference between a 27 game Championship season and a 38 game Premiership season.

My guess is that the majority of this "Championship clubs" chat comes directly from one very specific Championship club who have a very influential chairman who also has the ear of several journalists. I'm not sure there is any genuine mechanism in the SPFL rules through which the Championship clubs could actually block any of this.

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6 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If the Championship clubs want to make an argument that promotion should only take place if the leagues have played a similar number of games, then I assume they'll also be happy to cancel the Premiership play-offs and keep Hearts for another year? The difference between and 18 game L1 season and a 27 game Championship season is still smaller than the difference between a 27 game Championship season and a 38 game Premiership season.

My guess is that the majority of this "Championship clubs" chat comes directly from one very specific Championship club who have a very influential chairman who also has the ear of several journalists. I'm not sure there is any genuine mechanism in the SPFL rules through which the Championship clubs could actually block any of this.

It would also give a club in League Two with another influential chairman who are chucking money at their squad 4 more games to try and overtake the clubs ahead of them rather than being flushed into the Highland League.

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59 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

That bye week thing you are talking about doesn't apply in champ/L1 playoffs.

It's 9th v 4th and 2nd v 3rd, with the winners playing off thereafter.

Cheers RB, understood. Badly expressed on my part. The point I wanted to make was to suggest the bye week built in to the Prem/Championship playoff is widely seen as 'advantage Premiership',  an imbalanced rest period for recovery while the Championship also-rans slug it out.  So applied to our theoretical League One v Champ team playoff scenario, any period of waiting for League One to finish would give the Championship team extra recovery time.   So, again, not a level playing field for us, more help for them.   

Maybe it is all media shit-stirring, but the way the last two seasons have gone it would hardly be a surprise to find those grubbing around at the bottom of Tier 2 to throw up as many objections as they could invent. 

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10 minutes ago, Dennistoun Bairn said:

Cheers RB, understood. Badly expressed on my part. The point I wanted to make was to suggest the bye week built in to the Prem/Championship playoff is widely seen as 'advantage Premiership',  an imbalanced rest period for recovery while the Championship also-rans slug it out.  So applied to our theoretical League One v Champ team playoff scenario, any period of waiting for League One to finish would give the Championship team extra recovery time.   So, again, not a level playing field for us, more help for them.   

Maybe it is all media shit-stirring, but the way the last two seasons have gone it would hardly be a surprise to find those grubbing around at the bottom of Tier 2 to throw up as many objections as they could invent. 

 

It's not this though - the Premiership clubs are still playing their final league fixtures at this point.

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2 hours ago, latapythelegend said:

So when your club said prior to the season starting that it would be able to complete the season with the realisation that there may be no fans at all (as did every other SPFL club), that was a complete lie? Considering the 500k handout wasn't suggested at this point, your club surely must have had cash to see you through until at least may? 

Many SPFL clubs expected fans to be at grounds at some point during the season. IIRC our now departed and not at all missed chief executive stated that he expected fans to return by January. Many if not most clubs drank that Kool-Aid at all levels and I was critical of it at the time. The three lower leagues should never have started in the first place.

There's a huge difference between being able to 'complete' a season - to literally fulfil 27 league fixtures - and it being a prudent financial decision for a SPFL football club when fans do not in fact return to games at all. There has been no indication that Championship clubs were struggling to fulfil fixtures, but that does not mean that they weren't running at a substantial loss to do so. There is no 'lie' at all then because those are two separate points.

If you think that Championship clubs have been free to 'fritter away' an extra £350k by playing and not parking their arse on furlough then you'll have to show where exactly that money has gone. Alloa or indeed Morton are not swimming in megabucks additions as a result of the government grant, so the massive advantage that you have claimed does not in fact exist.

Edited by vikingTON
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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

If the Championship clubs want to make an argument that promotion should only take place if the leagues have played a similar number of games, then I assume they'll also be happy to cancel the Premiership play-offs and keep Hearts for another year?

I imagine 8/9 Championship clubs would be quite happy to keep Hearts for another year, with the possible exception of Dundee and their ludicrous 'title ambitions'.

Problem solved!

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The difference between and 18 game L1 season and a 27 game Championship season is still smaller than the difference between a 27 game Championship season and a 38 game Premiership season.

The difference being that both of the above leagues would have actually completed their fixtures, whereas League One and Two will not. Given the 'precedent' set last season was that only automatic promotion/relegation should occur in an unfinished season, that would be the possible grounds for binning the play-offs. 

To be clear, I'm not comfortable with that argument but that's the 'logic' that could come into play. If the lower leagues cannot complete on time then they should absolutely be scrapped though. 

Edited by vikingTON
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3 minutes ago, virginton said:

Given the 'precedent' set last season was that only automatic promotion/relegation should occur in an unfinished season, that would be the possible grounds for binning the play-offs.

The only precedent set last year was that PPG could be used to determine placings in an incomplete season. The play-offs weren't played because it wasn't practical to complete them in time. If it's practical to play them on the scheduled dates this season then there's no reason for them not to go ahead.

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