New clubs in the West of Scotland

[Burnieman]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

And what harm has any of that done?

You're failing to realise something fundamental in all of these theortical scernarios you're concocting. The applicant club has to be accepted by the league they're "hopping" into.

So while you're annoyed at Forth & Newmains considering their options it turns out the majority of EoS members were fine with it.

This is also why a lot of leagues require a bond as a financial commitment to the league.

I'm concerned that - as someone connected with a West Lothian club in the EoS - we'll end up back in the illogical situation of local rival clubs separated by invisible barriers just like in the Junior/Senior days when there is absolutely no need.  Dalkeith cant play Easthouses as they're in different leagues, Musseburgh - Preston, Bonnyrigg - Whitehill etc.  We all saw the absolute idiocy of it, and look back and wonder why it ever existed.

So whilst people say "it's upto the members of that league to decide" what about the clubs in other leagues that could be harmed by such an approach?  Blackburn can't play Armadale, Broxburn can't play Whitburn etc.

That's where the concern is, over and above confusion as to what is east and what is west, and I'm at a loss as to why this situation actually exists as a possibility.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Burnieman

[Burnieman]

5 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

WOS and EOS probably wouldn’t accept applications from each others league 

How many West Lothian clubs are EoS members, and how many are WoS members?

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

The WoS should not have clubs driving past EoS clubs top get to games.

Having looked at this, it wouldn't actually be the case. The clubs that are rumoured to be applying are all West of Blackburn United. Right now if they all did get into the WoSFL, none of them would drive past a EoSFL side.

That doesn't mean it should happen.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm concerned that - as someone connected with a West Lothian club in the EoS - we'll end up back in the illogical situation of local rival clubs separated by invisible barriers just like in the Junior/Senior days when there is absolutely no need.  Dalkeith cant play Easthouses as they're in different leagues, Musseburgh - Preston, Bonnyrigg - Whitehill etc.  We all saw the absolute idiocy of it, and look back and wonder why it ever existed.

So whilst people say "it's upto the members of that league to decide" what about the clubs in other leagues that could be harmed by such an approach?  Blackburn can't play Armadale, Broxburn can't play Whitburn etc.

That's where the concern is, over and above confusion as to what is east and what is west, and I'm at a loss as to why this situation actually exists as a possibility.

 

Basically every example you gave play in different divisions and would do so on initially entering the EoSFL. In Bonnyrigg v. Whitehill's case they also play in different leagues.

They could still play as there's the SCC, some of these would end up in the Scottish Cup as well and there's also friendles.

[Burnieman]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

Basically every example you gave play in different divisions and would do so on initially entering the EoSFL. In Bonnyrigg v. Whitehill's case they also play in different leagues.

They could still play as there's the SCC, some of these would end up in the Scottish Cup as well and there's also friendles.

Oh c'mon.............

[Pyramidic]

1 hour ago, Stag Nation said:

Ideally, the EOS and WOS should agree on a boundary.

However, I can't see why "clubs hopping back and forth" would be a problem, since any hopping would have to be into the bottom tier of the new league.

Surely the SFA should be leading on boundary definitions rather than remaining impotent / silent on such a key matter. Proper leadership is also needed to sort out the Tayside issue which in my view is a far more difficult matter to reach a sensible and workable solution which keeps the affected clubs relatively happy.

I suppose the middle ground for the West Lothian issue would be to define a “partition zone” where clubs may apply to WOSFL or EOSFL.

The same could arise for Tayside where the Dundee clubs might form a similar grey zone and have a choice of moving to EOSFL or North. However, that issue I know is a far more emotive matter.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyramidic

[LongTimeLurker]

11 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Surely the SFA should be leading on boundary definitions rather than remaining impotent / silent on such a key matter....

Not how Scottish football works. The SFA has very little power to dictate where the pyramid is concerned as the SJFA quickly found out when Tom Johnston was rattling on about board directives. All they can do is attempt to facilitate agreement between the various leagues involved. That means if the HL doesn't want Tayside clubs entering it from below then Tayside clubs are not getting into the north pyramid regardless of where boundaries were set a few years back for Club 42. It also means that if the WoS membership decides they want to accept a West Lothian club like West Calder should they apply then they will get in, if not then they'll need to try the EoS instead.

Edited February 16, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

54 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Oh c'mon.............

Up until 2007 all they had were friendles.

• Right now nobody knows who exactly are applying.
• WoSFL and EoSFL are sharing the same application deadline date. So anyone really should be hedging their bets if they want in the pyramid for 2021-22. They can't afford to dismiss the idea of a EoSFL application even if the WoS is their 1st choice.
• There are discussions taking place between the WoS and EoS.
• There's not going to be a WoS board until March.
• The West has other applicants and Conferences of 16-16-15 with a 2021-22 season that sees them go straight into Premier-First-Second-Third Divisions for the following year. So there's no idea how many clubs the membership might even be willing to accept for 2021-22.
• Then even if they get through all of that, they've got to get a majority of the 67 clubs to accept them into the WoSFL.

That's plenty of boxes to tick off and if this is really such a common sense decision then the vast majority (AKA everyone but Harthill) will fail to get in.

[Pyramidic]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Up until 2007 all they had were friendles.

• Right now nobody knows who exactly are applying.
• WoSFL and EoSFL are sharing the same application deadline date. So anyone really should be hedging their bets if they want in the pyramid for 2021-22. They can't afford to dismiss the idea of a EoSFL application even if the WoS is their 1st choice.
• There are discussions taking place between the WoS and EoS.
• There's not going to be a WoS board until March.
• The West has other applicants and Conferences of 16-16-15 with a 2021-22 season that sees them go straight into Premier-First-Second-Third Divisions for the following year. So there's no idea how many clubs the membership might even be willing to accept for 2021-22.
• Then even if they get through all of that, they've got to get a majority of the 67 clubs to accept them into the WoSFL.

That's plenty of boxes to tick off and if this is really such a common sense decision then the vast majority (AKA everyone but Harthill) will fail to get in.

Agreed. It is common sense that those West Lothian clubs inclined towards the WOSFL should also put in an application to the EOSFL to guarantee  a league for next season rather than risk dropping into the abyss of Amateur football or worse still facing trips to Brechin Victoria.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not how Scottish football works. The SFA has very little power to dictate where the pyramid is concerned as the SJFA quickly found out when Tom Johnston was rattling on about board directives. All they can do is attempt to facilitate agreement between the various leagues involved. That means if the HL doesn't want Tayside clubs entering it from below then Tayside clubs are not getting into the north pyramid regardless of where boundaries were set a few years back for Club 42. It also means that if the WoS membership decides they want to accept a West Lothian club like West Calder should they apply then they will get in, if not then they'll need to try the EoS instead.

That's an interesting perspective but it shows the current weakness of the SFA.

You only have to look elsewhere in the UK to see that the organisation of football pyramids is dealt with and promoted by the national FAs. There's possibly only the English Premier League and EFL who could stand out against that and, even then, they'd be made to pay a hefty price, literally, in order to get their way.

Wales and NI plus the English game from Tiers 1 to 6 are tightly controlled by the national FA's. In Wales they've just set up a whole new leagues structure and the clubs have gone along with it even though quite a few lost out as a result e.g. not having the newly required ground grading etc.

It can be done in Scotland and maybe the SFA should tell the non SPFL leagues what the future is going to be rather than wait for evolution to maybe happen sometime or other?

[Arthurlie1981]

I just want to clarify that I have no issues with these clubs as they are not doing anything wrong. My issue is that there is no boundary and that the 3 leagues almost a year after the wos was set up still haven’t sorted it.

My other issue is that the clubs from the east juniors COULD get an advantage in the they would only be one step away from tier 6, where as, if they had gone to the EoS they would have had to start from the bottom that’s my bigger issue.

[parkcircus]

29 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

I just want to clarify that I have no issues with these clubs as they are not doing anything wrong. My issue is that there is no boundary and that the 3 leagues almost a year after the wos was set up still haven’t sorted it.

My other issue is that the clubs from the east juniors COULD get an advantage in the they would only be one step away from tier 6, where as, if they had gone to the EoS they would have had to start from the bottom that’s my bigger issue.

Ah, there’s no advantage. New clubs are most likely to go into a new division 4, with the winner of that division winning promotion to what will be League 3 at the end of next season. 
The league promised no changes to the conference’s to teams that withdrew so that is priority number 1, new club applications came after that.

[Pyramidic]

53 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

Ah, there’s no advantage. New clubs are most likely to go into a new division 4, with the winner of that division winning promotion to what will be League 3 at the end of next season. 
The league promised no changes to the conference’s to teams that withdrew so that is priority number 1, new club applications came after that.

Very interesting. I suppose that scenario would enable West Lothian clubs to stay together as a group in the lowest WOSFL division until they eventually get promoted to League 3. It would also suggest that you would need to have a minimum of 8 new clubs to construct a viable division. Easily achievable?

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyramidic

[parkcircus]

41 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Very interesting. I suppose that scenario would enable West Lothian clubs to stay together as a group in the lowest WOSFL division until they eventually get promoted to League 3. It would also suggest that you would need to have a minimum of 8 new clubs to construct a viable division. Easily achievable?

There’s currently 14 clubs expressed an interest 

[Arthurlie1981]

Ah, there’s no advantage. New clubs are most likely to go into a new division 4, with the winner of that division winning promotion to what will be League 3 at the end of next season. 
The league promised no changes to the conference’s to teams that withdrew so that is priority number 1, new club applications came after that.

Thanks again Colin for clarifying and that eases some of my concern in regards to that. Still would prefer set boundaries but as I said as that currently doesn’t exists then there is nothing to stop them applying.

[Pyramidic]

20 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

There’s currently 14 clubs expressed an interest 

It would be one hell of a league! The one concern that I have is that you would be creating a 5 division "tower" which maximises the amount of travelling for lower tier clubs. If you split the bottom tier at League 3 into two regionalised divisions it would be a more attractive proposition for outliers such as Oban Saints, Dunoon and  Helensburgh to apply. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part!

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyramidic

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, parkcircus said:

There’s currently 14 clubs expressed an interest 

...so having a sensible looking division in numbers terms for would be newcomers next season probably requires a strong West Lothian component at this point given half of that could easily be from the east region south (Fauldhouse, Harthill, Whitburn, Armadale, Staneyburn, Bathgate and West Calder).

[parkcircus]

19 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...so having a sensible looking division in numbers terms for would be newcomers next season probably requires a strong West Lothian component at this point given half of that could easily be from the east region south (Fauldhouse, Harthill, Whitburn, Armadale, Staneyburn, Bathgate and West Calder).

There’s more to life than West Lothian, which at present doesn’t represent half of the interested clubs, it’ll be a very much West league if it starts 

[parkcircus]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

It would be one hell of a league! The one concern that I have is that you would be creating a 5 division "tower" which maximises the amount of travelling for lower tier clubs. If you split the bottom tier at League 3 into two regionalised divisions it would be a more attractive proposition for outliers such as Oban Saints, Dunoon and  Helensburgh to apply. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part!

None of them have applied 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

It would be one hell of a league! The one concern that I have is that you would be creating a 5 division "tower" which maximises the amount of travelling for lower tier clubs. If you split the bottom tier at League 3 into two regionalised divisions it would be a more attractive proposition for outliers such as Oban Saints, Dunoon and  Helensburgh to apply. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part!

If Vale of Leven could manage in the West Juniors once it went region wide so could a Helensburgh side. Same is basically true of a Dunoon one. 

Oban have a trek regardless.