New clubs in the West of Scotland

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, Dev said:

..... but would the WoS even put forward any such applicants to the clubs for consideration at the AGM?

The 500 lb gorilla in the room on this is the SJFA membership and SJC participation angle. Doable as a WoS club, but not as an EoS club as things stand at the moment. Up until the very last PWG meeting attended by Tom Johnston as recently as a year ago the west region clubs were still backing the SJFA's all regions in at the same time agenda, so how the WoS handles this is more of an unknown quantity than it would be with the EoS.

Would there be WoS clubs that still care enough about the junior vs senior angle to be willing to let the West Lothian five in so they can retain their SJFA membership like they did or would Armadale and Stoneyburn simply be viewed as too much of a trek for an early midweek kickoff if you are in Ayrshire or the far side of Glasgow? Time will tell I guess.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 hours ago, Dev said:

..... but would the WoS even put forward any such applicants to the clubs for consideration at the AGM?

Any idea of the dates for the EoS and WoS AGMs?

I don't know what's been agreed between leagues. With the SoSFL in the mix as a third wheel I doubt there will be anything specific written into league constitutions.

There's also something of an issue of the WoS electing their own officials. Can't remember if it was a podcast or newspaper report I saw it in, but there was mention of trying to do that in March although that wasn't guaranteed. With the lockdown restrictions and suspension of play that might be on the backburner just now.

AGMs are an unknown what with the suspension of play etc. Typically senior leagues try and have them before the SFA AGM. So end of May - first couple of weeks of June.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I’m not so sure they wouldn’t vote for these clubs to come in. I’ve sat through many meeting of the old WRJFA with votes going surprising ways that don’t make any sense. Never underestimate the power of sentiment and that some of those clubs using the fact that want to stay Junior but won’t get the chance if they move to the EOS.

My point is that they shouldn’t have the opportunity to apply, also I wasn’t saying Lochee would get in but I was making a point that there is nothing to stop them applying making it all absurd.

I was only using Lochee as it was the club previously brought up as an example.

With the SoSFL part of the pyramid I don't see the leagues putting any specific boundaries in place.

For all anyone knows all of this is just speculation and some of these WL clubs haven't even contacted the WoSFL yet. Harthill have as that's where the source of this news has come from, but they're from Lanarkshire so the league is likely to be receptive.

If it had been a WL club the IMG may well direct them to the EoSFL. In a similar way they have the power to reject applications that don't meet the criteria. Nobody knows and at the moment this is one sided speculation from the East.

[PastyMan]

Is there any mention of areas covered in either the East or the West League Constitutions?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I'd look closely at Harthill though. Most of the town is in Lanarkshire, but their ground is a literal stone's throw into West Lothian on the Greenrigg side. The rest are unambiguosly West Lothian with only Fauldhouse having any history (pre-WWII) of local clubs ever playing in Lanarkshire leagues.

But the ground is in West Lothian?

[LongTimeLurker]

Yes, they are technically really a Greenrigg club as that's what the West Lothian part of Harthill is called. Their ground is on the opposite side of the main street from Greenrigg right next to where Harthill proper starts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenrigg

Most of Harthill is in Lanarkshire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harthill,_Scotland

Given Clydebank were trying to get into the EoS at one point and even received provisional membership, Clydebank fans are maybe not the best people to be championing where a fixed boundary should be on this but can understand why the Armadale twitter guy would still be viewed negatively.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

But the ground is in West Lothian?

The village basically straddles the border between North Lanarkshire & West Lothian. Harthill is N Lanarkshire / Greenrigg is W Lothian.

As you can see the ground isn't really in Greenrigg either. It's basically in a field by both population centres. It's only powerful magical lines that are invisible to the eye that makes it one or the other.

[LongTimeLurker]

19 minutes ago, PastyMan said:

Is there any mention of areas covered in either the East or the West League Constitutions?

From what i remember there's a mention of local authorities covered in a vision statement in the preamble to the EoS one but nothing in the actual rules. patriot1 who is linked to St Andrews United has been posting regularly that EoS clubs were told last year after Luncarty got in that there were no geographical limits on who can apply to the EoS and have their application voted on by the existing members.

[PastyMan]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

From what i remember there's a mention of local authorities covered in a vision statement in the preamble to the EoS one but nothing in the actual rules. patriot1 who is linked to St Andrews United has been posting regularly that EoS clubs were told last year after Luncarty got in that there were no geographical limits on who can apply to the EoS and have their application voted on by the existing members.

I couldn't find a "constitution" document but in Policies and Procedures on the EoSFL site it does state as its mission
"The Mission Statement for The East of Scotland Football League is "To develop, foster, co-ordinate and sustain Association Football at Club and League level throughout the East of Scotland area”."
This isn't defined anywhere else in the documents and, for instance, the words Lothian or Fife, don't appear anywhere

[Arthurlie1981]

I was only using Lochee as it was the club previously brought up as an example.
With the SoSFL part of the pyramid I don't see the leagues putting any specific boundaries in place.
For all anyone knows all of this is just speculation and some of these WL clubs haven't even contacted the WoSFL yet. Harthill have as that's where the source of this news has come from, but they're from Lanarkshire so the league is likely to be receptive.
If it had been a WL club the IMG may well direct them to the EoSFL. In a similar way they have the power to reject applications that don't meet the criteria. Nobody knows and at the moment this is one sided speculation from the East.

Yeah Lochee was the example I used just to make a point.

The problem is where Harthill’s ground is based, it’s in West Lothian so if you make an exception to them what’s to stop Fauldhouse using it to make a case for entry as they are also in West Lothian and near to the North Lanarkshire boundary. It goes both ways what’s to stop Shotts doing the same etc.

What needs to happen is that the 3 leagues in the Lowland League catchment area get together to set the boundaries. Now that we have full coverage of the areas it make sense to do it now when I think there will be more clubs looking to join the leagues over the next few years.

Those making the Clydebank/BSC Glasgow example are missing the point, they had nowhere else to go but now that there is full coverage if BSC/Caley Braves etc ever got relegated it would make sure there was no debate about the league they would return too.

I think remaining a member of the SJFA might end being a moot point as I have a hunch that there may be more clubs not renewing membership for next season.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Yeah Lochee was the example I used just to make a point.

The problem is where Harthill’s ground is based, it’s in West Lothian so if you make an exception to them what’s to stop Fauldhouse using it to make a case for entry as they are also in West Lothian and near to the North Lanarkshire boundary. It goes both ways what’s to stop Shotts doing the same etc.

What needs to happen is that the 3 leagues in the Lowland League catchment area get together to set the boundaries. Now that we have full coverage of the areas it make sense to do it now when I think there will be more clubs looking to join the leagues over the next few years.

Those making the Clydebank/BSC Glasgow example are missing the point, they had nowhere else to go but now that there is full coverage if BSC/Caley Braves etc ever got relegated it would make sure there was no debate about the league they would return too.

I think remaining a member of the SJFA might end being a moot point as I have a hunch that there may be more clubs not renewing membership for next season.
 

 

Like I said about Harthill in an above comment. We really must enforce these magical invisible lines.

As for what stops Fauldhouse. There's them actually making an application, that application being forwarded to a vote of the membership, and the majority of the membership accepting it.

[Ginaro]

32 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

The problem is where Harthill’s ground is based, it’s in West Lothian so if you make an exception to them what’s to stop Fauldhouse using it to make a case for entry as they are also in West Lothian and near to the North Lanarkshire boundary.

Just make it so that if you can kick a football across the boundary then you can choose where to play. If not then tough, you're in the EOS.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Yes, they are technically really a Greenrigg club as that's what the West Lothian part of Harthill is called. Their ground is on the opposite side of the main street from Greenrigg right next to where Harthill proper starts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenrigg

Most of Harthill is in Lanarkshire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harthill,_Scotland

Given Clydebank were trying to get into the EoS at one point and even received provisional membership, Clydebank fans are maybe not the best people to be championing where a fixed boundary should be on this but can understand why the Armadale twitter guy would still be viewed negatively.

At the time there was no WoS. Remember?

[Dev]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Yes, they are technically really a Greenrigg club as that's what the West Lothian part of Harthill is called. Their ground is on the opposite side of the main street from Greenrigg right next to where Harthill proper starts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenrigg

Most of Harthill is in Lanarkshire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harthill,_Scotland

Given Clydebank were trying to get into the EoS at one point and even received provisional membership, Clydebank fans are maybe not the best people to be championing where a fixed boundary should be on this but can understand why the Armadale twitter guy would still be viewed negatively.

Yes, it's a little similar to Luncarty in this respect except that Luncarty didn't have an alternative Senior status league to go to.

Also, aren't the likes of Armadale (at least by the sound of what's being said on P&B) trying to get into the WoS on the back of a nearby side (Harthill) whose ground isn't inside Lanarkshire at all - it's inside Lothian. If Harthill don't get in then there's little obvious likelihood that other West Lothian sides will get into the WoS..... so the reputed five West Lothian sides aiming for the WoS is only five because they need Harthill's back to ride on. OK. Cynical view but is it really that far off what's going on?  

[Dev]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

From what i remember there's a mention of local authorities covered in a vision statement in the preamble to the EoS one but nothing in the actual rules. patriot1 who is linked to St Andrews United has been posting regularly that EoS clubs were told last year after Luncarty got in that there were no geographical limits on who can apply to the EoS and have their application voted on by the existing members.

But didn't that relate to the situation in Tayside where there is no Senior League alternative?

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

...What needs to happen is that the 3 leagues in the Lowland League catchment area get together to set the boundaries. Now that we have full coverage of the areas it make sense to do it now when I think there will be more clubs looking to join the leagues over the next few years...

Kello Rovers are what probably complicated matters on defining everything strictly by local authority areas. Kirkconnel is significantly into Dumfries and Galloway, which is generally viewed as SoS territory. They would also have had to deal with the anomalies of Tweedmouth being on the wrong side of the Tweed in EoS terms and Caledonian Braves Reserves playing at Strathclyde Park in SoS terms. By the sounds of what has been posted on the EoS subforum Harthill have actually been in contact with a WoS official, so if they are still pursuing it there probably is no obstacle in terms of constitutions or agreements between leagues.

[FairWeatherFan]

50 minutes ago, Dev said:

At the time there was no WoS. Remember?

At the time there was a choice though: SoS or EoS. The SoS at least having some instances of taking West of Scotland teams. Clydebank weighed up the options and opted for the EoS.

Harthill have to weigh up the options that are available to them and act in the best interests of their club.

[Dev]

33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

At the time there was a choice though: SoS or EoS. The SoS at least having some instances of taking West of Scotland teams. Clydebank weighed up the options and opted for the EoS.

Harthill have to weigh up the options that are available to them and act in the best interests of their club.

Fair enough.

[FairWeatherFan]

32 minutes ago, Dev said:

Fair enough.

In Harthill's case they're a club that's been in existence for less than 30 years (1992). Have been regulars at bottom division of their set up, especially since the East Region came into existence with a couple of years in abeyance in the last few years. The "conurbation" of Harthill including Greenrigg is for the vast majority in North Lanarkshire. So think this is just them weighing up the two options and what's in their best interest. Not tying themselves to a Junior tradition or looking for some sort of competitive advantage.

The definitive boundary that people are defending as representative of the divide between West & East is this squiggly line.

A squiggly line that actually takes North Lanarkshire further East of Greenrigg North & South of it.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[LongTimeLurker]

The bit of Lanarkshire that juts into West Lothian north of Harthill and the M8 takes the boundary to within a short stroll of both Whitburn (on the Harthill side of the M8 to the east around where the three roads meet) and Armadale (where the road top right crosses the railway line and stretches up along the road from there off the map). Fauldhouse also lies very close to the squiggly line around where the roads meet just north of the railway line towards the bottom of the graphic. The only community among the five being mentioned that is somewhat distant from it is Stoneyburn, which is off this map in the north east direction of Fauldhouse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneyburn

Edited February 2, 2021 by LongTimeLurker