PossilYM Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: A bit bleak. No other way of saying it, jimbaxters. Going by the numbers on here quoting games they saw 40/50 years ago and in real time going along to Wosfl games, it pretty obvious none of that age group will be around in 2063. Guess work would point to clubs going defunct and/or amalgamating. Then there's always the chance of something outside the box happening like one or two of the Wosfl ending up doing a Ross County or a Meadowbank Thistle/Livingston makeover and ending up in the top league. I'll take a guess that won't be a village team. For that to work you'd need some sort of population and a train station. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, PossilYM said: No other way of saying it, jimbaxters. Going by the numbers on here quoting games they saw 40/50 years ago and in real time going along to Wosfl games, it pretty obvious none of that age group will be around in 2063. Guess work would point to clubs going defunct and/or amalgamating. Then there's always the chance of something outside the box happening like one or two of the Wosfl ending up doing a Ross County or a Meadowbank Thistle/Livingston makeover and ending up in the top league. I'll take a guess that won't be a village team. For that to work you'd need some sort of population and a train station. True but you're also making sure the timeline is far enough ahead that you can come up with any theory without have to justify it. It's really beyond speculation as the factors at play are too numerous. I know you like to quote public transport and it's true that the bigger the club, the more that is required but getting into tier 4 isn't dependent on a train station, the top league yes. The biggest problem is the much quoted on here, bottleneck which exists and will continue to do so. The plain fact is that the whole set up will always be bending over to the ugly sisters, whether they are in their current positions or replaced domestically by the B teams. As long as clubs are short-sightedly taking the quick coin, the whole pyramid structure is just a notional idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossilYM Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: True but you're also making sure the timeline is far enough ahead that you can come up with any theory without have to justify it. It's really beyond speculation as the factors at play are too numerous. I know you like to quote public transport and it's true that the bigger the club, the more that is required but getting into tier 4 isn't dependent on a train station, the top league yes. The biggest problem is the much quoted on here, bottleneck which exists and will continue to do so. The plain fact is that the whole set up will always be bending over to the ugly sisters, whether they are in their current positions or replaced domestically by the B teams. As long as clubs are short-sightedly taking the quick coin, the whole pyramid structure is just a notional idea. The reason why i looked so far ahead was based on the present day rules of one promotion place and playoffs into the LL from above and below. Hypothetically had the pyramid began say in 1980 then by now we'd have clearly seen the outcome. The rules of course could change in time to automatic promotion/relegation to the LL and above. Why i mention public transport is because of the Darvel affect. You can really forget a midweek game without access to a car. Not exactly great when the bulk of Central Belt population is almost but not quite within reach. How long can it be time wise to Darvel, from say the top end of Hamilton in a car? I'll admit I'm suspicious of football grounds that are nowhere near a train station. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 4 hours ago, PossilYM said: The reason why i looked so far ahead was based on the present day rules of one promotion place and playoffs into the LL from above and below. Hypothetically had the pyramid began say in 1980 then by now we'd have clearly seen the outcome. The rules of course could change in time to automatic promotion/relegation to the LL and above. Why i mention public transport is because of the Darvel affect. You can really forget a midweek game without access to a car. Not exactly great when the bulk of Central Belt population is almost but not quite within reach. How long can it be time wise to Darvel, from say the top end of Hamilton in a car? I'll admit I'm suspicious of football grounds that are nowhere near a train station. The Station Parks at Forfar and Dalmellington must be triggers then bloody beeching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthurlie1981 Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 4 hours ago, PossilYM said: The reason why i looked so far ahead was based on the present day rules of one promotion place and playoffs into the LL from above and below. Hypothetically had the pyramid began say in 1980 then by now we'd have clearly seen the outcome. The rules of course could change in time to automatic promotion/relegation to the LL and above. Why i mention public transport is because of the Darvel affect. You can really forget a midweek game without access to a car. Not exactly great when the bulk of Central Belt population is almost but not quite within reach. How long can it be time wise to Darvel, from say the top end of Hamilton in a car? I'll admit I'm suspicious of football grounds that are nowhere near a train station. The numbers using public transport have never recovered from Pre Pandemic levels so I don't think lack of public transport is much reasoning tbh. In fact in some towns and cities suburban buses are being curtailed due to lack of usage. You might find it difficult to reach ground in bigger towns and cities due to this so I think your argument is a red herring. We have heard for years that clubs would go the way of Baillieston but it hasn't happened other than a handful. Maybe you will be right but I tend to look at the positives and don't see any reasons for clubs folding or amalgamating, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossilYM Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said: The numbers using public transport have never recovered from Pre Pandemic levels so I don't think lack of public transport is much reasoning tbh. In fact in some towns and cities suburban buses are being curtailed due to lack of usage. You might find it difficult to reach ground in bigger towns and cities due to this so I think your argument is a red herring. We have heard for years that clubs would go the way of Baillieston but it hasn't happened other than a handful. Maybe you will be right but I tend to look at the positives and don't see any reasons for clubs folding or amalgamating, Not sure if Harmony Row did amalgamate or were just taken over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossilYM Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said: The Station Parks at Forfar and Dalmellington must be triggers then bloody beeching. Just need to get things back on track before they go off the rails. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 1 hour ago, PossilYM said: Not sure if Harmony Row did amalgamate or were just taken over. Was there not a total cut off last season from the youth set-up? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drs Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said: Was there not a total cut off last season from the youth set-up? Yes. Harmony Row reverted back to only being a youth set up, this meant they ditched their affiliation with the Women's team and also the current Senior team. The seniors also had to have a slightly different badge this season to differentiate themselves from the youth set up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 2 hours ago, PossilYM said: Not sure if Harmony Row did amalgamate or were just taken over. Maybe more of an assimilation, would appear to suit both parties. HR, starting to look like the next Rossvale, needed an identity to remain viable. Giffnock, like a number of clubs at the moment, looking at the feasibility of having a senior team and the almost defunct HR allows the Sports Club to dip their toes with a squad and setup already 2 years into the process. Hopefully works out for both or one or whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 23 hours ago, Mediocre Pundit said: Think that’s the plan for Giffnock. They’ve got plans to develop the hub and hope the senior team provides an attractive pathway to kids - and that they pester their parents to hang around after their training and get some food / drinks and watch the adult teams who wear the same kit as them. it feels more comparable with how hockey clubs operate in the Netherlands than traditional Scottish football - I.e. five pitches used all day Saturday by a range of levels - but supports a great community ethos. I think that's been the gameplan for a lot of the former boys' clubs who have entered the juniors and latterly the WOS...the assumption that because they've got a membership of x-hundred they've got a ready made fanbase. It rarely pans out that way though...parents are happy to ferry their kid to their age-group game at 9.30 in the morning, but in the main are understandably reluctant to hang around for the rest of the day to watch the adult team. I've always equated it to being a member of a gym - you're happy to pay for the service they provide, but if they started a competitive gymnastics team you'd be unlikely to feel compelled to drop everything and start going to competitions they're involved in. Another issue they seem to face is that the pathway they provide turns out not to be what they perhaps envisaged - if you eventually get two or three first team players from any age group side you'll have done really well. It ends up that only a small minority of the youth setup's production line make the transition to adult football with the rest of the first team squad inevitably filled with players from outside of the organisation. This seems to cause friction and in some cases fracture between the youth and adult setups...it's hard not to see a pattern emerging there...BSC/Rossvale/Harmony Row and over in the east Syngenta... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 What was the script with Harmony Row, are they going back to concentrating on their youth set-up and handed the senior team over to Giffnock? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 49 minutes ago, Burnieman said: What was the script with Harmony Row, are they going back to concentrating on their youth set-up and handed the senior team over to Giffnock? They apparently already severed the connections with the adult teams not long into this season: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Hillonearth said: I think that's been the gameplan for a lot of the former boys' clubs who have entered the juniors and latterly the WOS...the assumption that because they've got a membership of x-hundred they've got a ready made fanbase. It rarely pans out that way though...parents are happy to ferry their kid to their age-group game at 9.30 in the morning, but in the main are understandably reluctant to hang around for the rest of the day to watch the adult team. I've always equated it to being a member of a gym - you're happy to pay for the service they provide, but if they started a competitive gymnastics team you'd be unlikely to feel compelled to drop everything and start going to competitions they're involved in. Another issue they seem to face is that the pathway they provide turns out not to be what they perhaps envisaged - if you eventually get two or three first team players from any age group side you'll have done really well. It ends up that only a small minority of the youth setup's production line make the transition to adult football with the rest of the first team squad inevitably filled with players from outside of the organisation. This seems to cause friction and in some cases fracture between the youth and adult setups...it's hard not to see a pattern emerging there...BSC/Rossvale/Harmony Row and over in the east Syngenta... Whilst I don't disagree with these views there's always the point that clubs don't set out to join the WoS etc just for a single season or two or three - even if that is how it turns out. Many hope that medium/long term support will come via current players (of all ages) and their families, including future families. This is particularly relevant with Youth type Clubs. Some seem to a bit ill-informed about the realities of playing at this level but that's down to the individual club, isn't it, and not a general failing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dev said: Whilst I don't disagree with these views there's always the point that clubs don't set out to join the WoS etc just for a single season or two or three - even if that is how it turns out. Many hope that medium/long term support will come via current players (of all ages) and their families, including future families. This is particularly relevant with Youth type Clubs. Some seem to a bit ill-informed about the realities of playing at this level but that's down to the individual club, isn't it, and not a general failing? Building a fanbase is always going to be a slow process, and I think there's a certain degree of naivete in some quarters where as I say there seems to be an expectation that existing membership will equal ready-made active support. There's also the question of catchment area - someone like Gartcairn will be fine in the longer term because they're smack bang in the middle of a fairly heavily-populated area where there is no competition for fans at that level, whereas in Bishopbriggs there are now no less than three teams in an area where it's debatable whether there's enough appetite to sustain one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossilYM Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 On 18/03/2023 at 09:39, Hillonearth said: I think that's been the gameplan for a lot of the former boys' clubs who have entered the juniors and latterly the WOS...the assumption that because they've got a membership of x-hundred they've got a ready made fanbase. It rarely pans out that way though...parents are happy to ferry their kid to their age-group game at 9.30 in the morning, but in the main are understandably reluctant to hang around for the rest of the day to watch the adult team. I've always equated it to being a member of a gym - you're happy to pay for the service they provide, but if they started a competitive gymnastics team you'd be unlikely to feel compelled to drop everything and start going to competitions they're involved in. Another issue they seem to face is that the pathway they provide turns out not to be what they perhaps envisaged - if you eventually get two or three first team players from any age group side you'll have done really well. It ends up that only a small minority of the youth setup's production line make the transition to adult football with the rest of the first team squad inevitably filled with players from outside of the organisation. This seems to cause friction and in some cases fracture between the youth and adult setups...it's hard not to see a pattern emerging there...BSC/Rossvale/Harmony Row and over in the east Syngenta... Could add some of the splits are to do with personality clashes and of course, money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 On 18/03/2023 at 11:33, Dev said: Whilst I don't disagree with these views there's always the point that clubs don't set out to join the WoS etc just for a single season or two or three - even if that is how it turns out. Many hope that medium/long term support will come via current players (of all ages) and their families, including future families. This is particularly relevant with Youth type Clubs. Some seem to a bit ill-informed about the realities of playing at this level but that's down to the individual club, isn't it, and not a general failing? Have a wee bit of insight 're the youth clubs, if anyone has more or better info please correct me, there isn't a blueprint that they follow. Looking at the original 2 Rossvale and Gartcairn; I was involved in youth football in North Lan for a while. As far as I can recall both had ambitions to have an adult setup, it appears to be going forward to this end with the correct set of players and coaches was the plan. It's the same with some of the Div 4 clubs; St.Peters mainly made up of their u17's, Kilsyth Ath was I believe from an under 20 squad. Thorn are a young side, don't know their age. West Park however went amateur for a season to test the water. Not aware they started with a specific age group of players, more of a mix age wise. Then there is Easterhouse which I think is a mix of their existing amateur sides and age group players. None appear to have been overly concerned about garnering fans initially, more focused on onfield stability. Although they all do have plans to upgrade and develop the cages they inhabit. Eglinton I understand came from amateurs, not had an influx of other ex-ammies, so will be interesting to see if any apply for next season. Like all of new endeavours; some will flourish, some will merely survive and some will disappear into memory. It's been this way since sports club first appeared. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye the Gnu Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 On 17/03/2023 at 11:01, PossilYM said: How about Ayr Utd in the LL? lOL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye the Gnu Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 On 17/03/2023 at 12:16, PossilYM said: The reason why i looked so far ahead was based on the present day rules of one promotion place and playoffs into the LL from above and below. Hypothetically had the pyramid began say in 1980 then by now we'd have clearly seen the outcome. The rules of course could change in time to automatic promotion/relegation to the LL and above. Why i mention public transport is because of the Darvel affect. You can really forget a midweek game without access to a car. Not exactly great when the bulk of Central Belt population is almost but not quite within reach. How long can it be time wise to Darvel, from say the top end of Hamilton in a car? I'll admit I'm suspicious of football grounds that are nowhere near a train station. Darvel actually isn’t as remote as most folk think. Is it not just over half an hour off the M74 past Strathaven.? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollok mad Posted March 21, 2023 Share Posted March 21, 2023 1 hour ago, HorseyGhirl said: Have a wee bit of insight 're the youth clubs, if anyone has more or better info please correct me, there isn't a blueprint that they follow. Looking at the original 2 Rossvale and Gartcairn; I was involved in youth football in North Lan for a while. As far as I can recall both had ambitions to have an adult setup, it appears to be going forward to this end with the correct set of players and coaches was the plan. It's the same with some of the Div 4 clubs; St.Peters mainly made up of their u17's, Kilsyth Ath was I believe from an under 20 squad. Thorn are a young side, don't know their age. West Park however went amateur for a season to test the water. Not aware they started with a specific age group of players, more of a mix age wise. Then there is Easterhouse which I think is a mix of their existing amateur sides and age group players. None appear to have been overly concerned about garnering fans initially, more focused on onfield stability. Although they all do have plans to upgrade and develop the cages they inhabit. Eglinton I understand came from amateurs, not had an influx of other ex-ammies, so will be interesting to see if any apply for next season. Like all of new endeavours; some will flourish, some will merely survive and some will disappear into memory. It's been this way since sports club first appeared. It's something you see far more often at the bottom end of the English pyramid where most of the game won't have more than a few friends and a couple of people passing by, it's just something we haven't really seen in semi pro football in Scotland because of no pyramid and the fact we still have a distinction between professionals and amateurs. There is only so many fans to go round really and adding more teams to the pyramid will mean some teams aren't really even in a position where they need much of a paying fanbase to keep the lights on 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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