New clubs in the West of Scotland

[LongTimeLurker]

On 21/01/2023 at 11:40, Hillonearth said:

...And I think that touches on the most important aspect. The most fundamental difference between non-league and amateur levels is that one is spectator-facing and one isn't...

Think it's normal to have a break point in pyramid terms revolving around that difference where entry by application rather than promotion is very much possible (e.g. by Phoenix clubs with a suitable ground and significant following). In England, it's only Steps 1-6 from the Nationwide Conference down that are fully in the pyramid in terms of the principle of progression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system

Then the decision is whether to rigidly cap numbers and force bottom placed clubs out on a regular basis so they can be replaced by suitable applicants and/or top clubs in feeder leagues that do have the necessary facilities, have finished near the top of their division and want to progress.

Don't think there's much appetite to kick clubs out into amateur leagues in a Scottish context, so ways need to be found to keep lowest divisions functioning sensibly even when there aren't bang on 16 clubs. Easy enough to do with conferences (see what the EoS did) without risking having the fixture secretary suffer a stroke.

[Dev]

15 hours ago, Burnieman said:

A fair point.

Re the forms, it's the same form but you are either a professional, non-contract professional, or an amateur and there are rules around jumping between the three statuses as a player. It can get quite complicated.

Looks like there's no need for the three different levels if they're all completing the same form!

However, looking elsewhere, the very recent re-organisation in Wales created a "recreational football" level below Tier 3. No recent  amateur/welfare/juniors tradition as such although there used to be a national amateur team years ago. There is still a national team for those below English EFL level.

The top clubs there are creamed off by the EFL with Merthyr also still playing in English football for traditional reasons - a bit like Berwick Rangers' situation.

Beneath the top divisionthe Tier 2 is two regionalised divisions, split more or less North & Mid and South. Beneath that Tier 3 is split again into sub-regions. After that it is described as recreational football.

Maybe in Scotland it should be one form to sign with the SPFL being played out on a national basis as now. The next level down is in place too with the Highland and Lowland leagues subdividing into the WoS/EoS/SoS for the south and the Midlands Juns/North Juns/N Caley for the Highland so it's what happens beneath that i.e. truly recreational football.

Just label all leagues beneath as recreational football. No need to Juns/Amats/Welfare etc at any level. Such clubs would still need to be administered by the SFA but that would be directly and not via "feeder" organisations.

All that would be needed then would be to arrange for a practical system of promotion and relegation. In Wales and England there are lower requirements needed as clubs descend the various levels. Recreational would only need a field and posts (more or less) but to move up to the Highland and Lowland feeder leagues there would need to be minimum standards. If desired those standards could be the same within each league - no matter how  many clubs or divisions there are e.g. 80 clubs in 5 divisions in the WoS all with the same min requirements. 

I would favour the SFA allowing the Highland and Lowland feeder leagues the freedom to adjust the requirements needed by each club in terms of facilities according to the division. Maybe heading towards licenced clubs/teams only in the top divisions feeding directly into the Highland or Lowland league. This wouldn't work for all leagues but maybe an option for the WoS and EoS given time. Maybe the feeder leagues could reduce requirements for their lowest divisions or they could be allowed to regionalise the lowest divisions so that the step-up from "recreational football" would be easier to achieve i.e. there would be some "middle" ground for clubs at the base of the feeders and at the top of "recreational football". 

The other thing that needs doing is a boost to the Charities/Trusts which give grant aid to football clubs, Youth organisations, Community groups for defibrillators, youth and kids football kit, ground improvements, etc.

If the shrinking numbers of "recreational football" clubs is to be dealt with then the provision of enough decent facilities throughout Scotland  needs to be prioritised. After all is it too much to ask that decent playing fields and changing rooms are available, whether run by clubs, communities, councils, or whatever?

In order to help the health of the nation Councils should be supported by the Government to provide adequate numbers of staff to maintain and keep open playing fields & changing rooms at no cost/minimal cost to the clubs and other groups wishing to use them. This would cost £, for sure, but this would be pea-nuts compared to health/mental health benefits and the funds spent on other non-sport/recreation priorities.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Dev
.

[PossilYM]

On 01/02/2021 at 20:20, Pyramidic said:

I do not disagree with you Arhurlie1981 and the others. Just wondering if we would reverse our case if a club like Newton Stewart wished to move from the SOSFL to join the WOSFL next season?

There is a case in my view to allow some flexibility and fluidity in drawing up boundaries. However, this should not be used to help accommodate  grievances and bigotry as in the case of the small cabal of WL clubs.

You mean like Threave Rovers

[Josuke Higashikata]

Always fancied Giffnock to join the pyramid.

Busby next, please (playing out of Overlee). Scottish football needs a strong East Renfrewshire.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Josuke Higashikata

[GNU_Linux]

2 hours ago, Josuke Higashikata said:

Scottish football needs a strong East Renfrewshire.

Thornliebank FC revival incoming.

[PossilYM]

2 hours ago, Josuke Higashikata said:

Always fancied Giffnock to join the pyramid.

Busby next, please (playing out of Overlee). Scottish football needs a strong East Renfrewshire.

Is Giffnock a different team from Giffnock North?

[PossilYM]

2 hours ago, Josuke Higashikata said:

Always fancied Giffnock to join the pyramid.

Busby next, please (playing out of Overlee). Scottish football needs a strong East Renfrewshire.

St Cadoc?

Nellston?

Arthurlie?

[Pollok mad]

Just now, PossilYM said:

Is Giffnock a different team from Giffnock North?

Yeah Giffnock North are a spin off amateur team from the running club, with a pitch at the running club. Giffnock SC is a youth club based out of the old Hutchie Auldhouse pitches just by Thornliebank train station

[PossilYM]

1 minute ago, Pollok mad said:

Yeah Giffnock North are a spin off amateur team from the running club, with a pitch at the running club. Giffnock SC is a youth club based out of the old Hutchie Auldhouse pitches just by Thornliebank train station

As they used to say in the old Glasgow Empire, awe naw there's two of them.

[Josuke Higashikata]

6 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

St Cadoc?

Nellston?

Arthurlie?

East-East Renfrewshire then.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Josuke Higashikata

[PossilYM]

What became of the ruling from a couple of years back that new clubs had to have a stadium up to basic standards like a bit of catering, a lavvy and a railing to separate spectators from the pitch.

Believe two years was the time allotted.

Has that been ditched?

[GNU_Linux]

Rumours that St Patrick's FP of the Central Scottish AFL are WOSFL bound. Recently appointed ex-Aberdeen & Northampton town player Zander Diamond as manager

As a player Zander Diamond played more than 200 SPL games, won a league title in English football and represented Scotland B.

And earlier this month the former Aberdeen star agreed to join Johnny O’Brien’s coaching team at St Patrick’s FPs.

Now the Bellsmyre man is hoping his experience can help drive the Saints to the next level.

Diamond told the Lennox: “I know the proud history of the FPs having been brought up in Dumbarton, my uncle Stephen played for them so I grew up watching them on Saturdays.

“Johnny invited me to training to take a couple of sessions and I agreed. I hadn’t been doing anything since I left Queen’s Park as a coach.

“I had a few discussions after training and I enjoyed the vision and ambition Johnny had for the club going forward.

 

“It whetted my appetite and it was something I wanted to be a part of.

“Throughout the latter half of my career I started to write down a lot of notes.

 

“Football coaches and managers are the best thieves out there. We take a bit from every coach and manager we’ve worked under.

“I had a great grounding at Aberdeen with Jimmy Calderwood and Jimmy Nicholl who I’m still in contact with to this day. They still give me words of wisdom and advice.

“Down south I won a title under Chris Wilder, I worked with Gary Rowett who is at Millwall now.

“I spoke to (Stevenage boss) Steve Evans last week and he was asking about St Patrick’s. He was excited when he heard the plans.

“I worked under Craig Brown and Archie Knox too. You need to use everything you’ve learned as a player in coaching.”
 

The 37-year-old now hopes to use his profile and contacts to help St Pat’s grow.

He continued: “St Pat’s are a family club and we are trying to strive to become a community club.

“In my 18 years of being away I can’t believe that they don’t have a pitch to call their own.

“It’s something we’ve spoken about at great length. We’ve had some encouraging talks on that.

“I believe St Patrick’s FPs need a pitch. That would further the club’s links with the community, but it would also create a pathway for the talent.

“Dumbarton has always been a hotbed of footballing talent.

“If we can have a first team to aim for then it’ll be fruitful for the area as a whole.

“It’s not just football. We want to do a range of things to help the community.

“Everyone knows St Patrick’s FPs. This is a club with a proud history and tradition and we know the whole town would back us fully.”

Delighted Saints boss Johnny O’Brien said: “I’m really enthusiastic about this appointment.

“Zander had a great career as a player and having played under a few different coaches he has learned his craft well.

“In the short time he has been with us he has raised the standard of our training sessions and his coaching input at his first game was first class.

“The players are all buzzing about the appointment and the training sessions have been excellent.” Coach Tommy Graham added: “Johnny must take most of the credit for his hard work and diligence to contact Zander and to fully inform him of our plans for the future.

“Zander has bought into our vision and he was fully aware of our club, having been brought up in Dumbarton and attending St Pat’s school.

“He also had a family connection through his Uncle Stephen who was a wonderful player for the Saints in the 1990’s and played a major part in Saints first Scottish Amateur Cup win in 1990.”

Despite signing up as a coach however, Diamond insists he has no plans to pull the boots back on.

He added: “The idea of me playing did get floated. But I’ve had my career.

 

“My family has been through enough with my injuries. I enjoy training and I’ve played a few charity matches for Aberdeen. But my playing days are gone.

“I’m lucky in that coaching football is the next best thing to playing it.

“I’m doing that at my local team and hopefully we can move mountains to move this club forward.”

[PossilYM]

Obviously a weakness with new clubs in general joining the Wosfl is an over subscription in some areas.

Only a matter of time before some clubs withdraw completely, go defunct, amalgamate or split.

Some will flourish but is that at the expense of others.

Who were Harmony Row hoping to attract as fans?

At this level locally you've already got Benburb and St Anthony's. Even if those two were playing away you've got St Cadoc's doing the groundshare gig at Benburb.

Time and money will tell with a lot of this.

 

 

 

[Hampden Diehard]

6 hours ago, PossilYM said:

Obviously a weakness with new clubs in general joining the Wosfl is an over subscription in some areas.

Only a matter of time before some clubs withdraw completely, go defunct, amalgamate or split.

Some will flourish but is that at the expense of others.

Who were Harmony Row hoping to attract as fans

 

 

 

I wonder if attracting fans, rather than giving kids a transition to what is deemed "senior" football, is on the radar of some of the new clubs.  Some of them do a fantastic job in fundraising; maybe having that cash behind them to enable the coaching to be delivered is enough for them. I can't see Giffnock, who have hunners of kids with them, attracting a crowd either.

[Guest]

It's how nature works. With the WOS being relatively new there are clubs dipping their toes in the water. Some will thrive, some will mearly survive, and some will not make it.

Happened like that in early days of Juniors and Seniors. Can remember reading an article on St.Mungo's juniors based around Townhead don't recall all the details of it. Think they disbanded and were replaced by a club who are still active.

[Spyro]

18 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

who have hunners of kids with them, attracting a crowd either

There’s your crowd there. Aye a squad of bairns and the dug might get criticised at first, but some of them will stick around as they grow up… then take their kids, etc.

My mate’s wee lass plays for Blackburn and she’s always dragging her dad with some friends to the senior games after her training, she’s absolutely daft about them. Suppose at that age it is a massive thing to be handed your first strip, allow to play on the adults park and made to feel a part of the club. It’s what Blackburn have been doing for a while and it’s already reaping the rewards.

[Mediocre Pundit]

Think that’s the plan for Giffnock. They’ve got plans to develop the hub and hope the senior team provides an attractive pathway to kids - and that they pester their parents to hang around after their training and get some food / drinks and watch the adult teams who wear the same kit as them. 

 

it feels more comparable with how hockey clubs operate in the Netherlands than traditional Scottish football - I.e. five pitches used all day Saturday by a range of levels - but supports a great community ethos. 

[craigkillie]

Any club that is built around a specific town and community, and does lots of work within that community, always has a chance of making something of themselves.

[PossilYM]

1 hour ago, HorseyGhirl said:

It's how nature works. With the WOS being relatively new there are clubs dipping their toes in the water. Some will thrive, some will mearly survive, and some will not make it.

Happened like that in early days of Juniors and Seniors. Can remember reading an article on St.Mungo's juniors based around Townhead don't recall all the details of it. Think they disbanded and were replaced by a club who are still active.

The present day Petershill rose out of some of the defunct St Mungo's fan base.

You're correct, the link between the recent setting up of the Wosfl and the early days of Scottish football seems to be almost a mirror image.

Clubs coming and going,

Who's to say another Harmony Row won't apply again in the future.

Some of it seems sad and maybe even slightly daft. A grand old name like Shettleston disappearing to be replaced the bland Glasgow Utd. Who would even notice that if that name left the Wosfl. Although i wonder is there any connection to Shettleston name change and Glasgow Wellington who have applied to join the South of Scotland league. Maybe just coincidence they play in the exact same area.

Daft part is, two Rossvale's or two Broomhill's.

Kilsyth Athletic popping up next an old club like Kilsyth Rangers.

Thorn right beside Johnstone Burgh.

Three teams trying to feed out of Cumbernauld. Take your pick, it's Cumbernauld, don't fancy Clyde then how does OG Broomhill suit you? 

The old Junior crowd probably won't see this pan out going by the demographics of most of the supporters but today's players from the present 80 or so teams will see it over the next 30/40/50 years.

Would it really be a massive shock to see Albion Rovers playing in the Wosfl?

How about Ayr Utd in the LL?

 

[jimbaxters]

33 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

The present day Petershill rose out of some of the defunct St Mungo's fan base.

You're correct, the link between the recent setting up of the Wosfl and the early days of Scottish football seems to be almost a mirror image.

Clubs coming and going,

Who's to say another Harmony Row won't apply again in the future.

Some of it seems sad and maybe even slightly daft. A grand old name like Shettleston disappearing to be replaced the bland Glasgow Utd. Who would even notice that if that name left the Wosfl. Although i wonder is there any connection to Shettleston name change and Glasgow Wellington who have applied to join the South of Scotland league. Maybe just coincidence they play in the exact same area.

Daft part is, two Rossvale's or two Broomhill's.

Kilsyth Athletic popping up next an old club like Kilsyth Rangers.

Thorn right beside Johnstone Burgh.

Three teams trying to feed out of Cumbernauld. Take your pick, it's Cumbernauld, don't fancy Clyde then how does OG Broomhill suit you? 

The old Junior crowd probably won't see this pan out going by the demographics of most of the supporters but today's players from the present 80 or so teams will see it over the next 30/40/50 years.

Would it really be a massive shock to see Albion Rovers playing in the Wosfl?

How about Ayr Utd in the LL?

 

A bit bleak.