New clubs in the West of Scotland

[LongTimeLurker]

18 hours ago, Dev said:

....Luncarty went EoS as they wanted to open up the possibility of applying for an SFA club licence - again no other local alternative available....

Do you have any evidence that licensing came into it with Luncarty or are you just making this up because it bolsters your argument? Their ground would be far from easy to bring up to licensing standards. They are a small club from a small village so a bit like Muirkirk in WoS terms in likelihood of putting the funding together any time soon.

https://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/luncarty.htm

Let's call a spade a spade. Would you have a problem with Harthill joining the WoS if Harthill wasn't a stronghold of Orangeism? You are so shrill about it that it's hard to believe it's entirely about football when we are talking about a village that is mainly within Lanarkshire.

As things stand there are no boundaries at tier 6 so there was nothing to stop the EoS adding Clydebank or Luncarty and there is nothing to stop Harthill joining the WoS should the existing members vote them in. The county boundary and/or lines of latitude are an irrelevance at this point unless the WoS and EoS memberships actively decide that's as far as they ever want to go for league games and make this fact known to future potential applicants through a rule change explicitly defining the geographical scope of their league on that basis. If you feel strongly about this then why not try to get your club to put a motion into the next WoS AGM?

Edited February 28, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Dev]

It's good to see posters express their own point of view.

[8MileBU]

On 25/02/2021 at 23:23, stanley said:

Yes, it would certainly be best to avoid a situation where Lowland League clubs get to decide which league they get relegated into. Opens up lots of potential issues. If there are no borders then how can any clubs be turned down? 

It’s an admin shambles. On the face of it, at a glance, for most folk it would seem the sensible thing to do would be to set the boundaries usual traditional county lines and postcodes, i.e existing West Lothian clubs in EOSFL meaning any new West Lothian applicants looking to go Senior should get placed in EOSFL. 

However in Harthill’s case it’s understandable that there’s a case they should be maybe be lumped into the WL lot given their close proximity to the likes of Whitburn/Armadale. Technically though, Harthill is North Lanarkshire and this particular county is where things get skewed and complicated and you can’t create boundaries based on existing or traditional county lines.

Harhill Royal based in a village in North Lanarkshire, could apply and be accepted into the WOSFL. 

Caledonian Braves, also based in North Lanarkshire are playing in the SOSFL.

Then you have Cumbernauld Colts,  representing a town in North Lanarkshire playing in the Lowland League, which is currently predominantly made up of mostly former EOS/ERSJFA sides.  

Edited February 28, 2021 by 8MileBU

[glensmad]

Caledonian Braves' proper team are in the Lowland League. It's their reserves who are in the SoSFL.

[Pyramidic]

Would the WOSFL be pressured into accepting Colts sides if offered a pot full of gold? Money does talk.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

23 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Those exceptions were made for entirely different reasons - the SOS sides wanted to progress from the essentially-amateur league they were in, and Clydebank had no viable alternative at the time as no senior league existed in the West for them to join. Boundaries will probably require to be set as a matter of some urgency, as entertaining these speculative applications from West Lothian will open a can of worms for the future...as has been said, with that precedent set, the EOS wouldn't have a leg to stand on regarding accommodating the Tayside teams, and what would be to stop the likes of say Banks O'Dee who apparently (and probably rightly) were aggrieved at the way their application to the HFL was treated applying to go EOS?

By all means, make an exception for Harthill due to geography. After that you're making ever more specious arguments: "Ah, but Whitburn's only another couple of miles...and Stoneyburn's just a couple more, and West Calder another couple..." in a daisy chain right across West Lothian until you reach the likes of Pumpherston which is about five miles from the outskirts of Edinburgh.

There's also the question of the numerical imbalance that already exists between east and west which no-one seems to have mentioned thus far which would only be exacerbated by this...we'd be talking 80+ sides on one side of the country and less than 50 on the other...and all for what reason?

Because some folk feel they have burned their bridges and don't want to eat crow in front of others they've disparaged in the past.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is the only reason this is even being discussed.

Absolutely outstanding post, yes, they are only looking to join so that they can avoid eating humble pie. My worry is that they join and start trying to turn things backwards into some kind of pseudo junior mentality enclave and block progress for years because of the way things ‘have always been done’. 

21 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Would the WOSFL be pressured into accepting Colts sides if offered a pot full of gold? Money does talk.

 

No, the old firm have ruined Scottish football for generations and the shite that comes along with them. Its bad enough having tribute act teams who behave like the old firm mini when you travel, have been called an orange b one week and heard anti catholic slurs the next, would only be made worse. 

[Hillonearth]

18 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Absolutely outstanding post, yes, they are only looking to join so that they can avoid eating humble pie. My worry is that they join and start trying to turn things backwards into some kind of pseudo junior mentality enclave and block progress for years because of the way things ‘have always been done’.

I must admit, it's a subsidiary concern - as I alluded to earlier in respect of the interview with Billy Adams, it's clear that the WOS already has at least some teams that either actively didn't want to leave the Juniors, but were railroaded into doing so by the WR shutting up shop, along with a few that going by club statements seemed sufficiently wrong-footed by the pace of events that they didn't seem entirely sure what had just happened.

in that climate the last thing that's needed is to bring in another group of clubs from outside the natural catchment area who number amongst the most intransigent to the concept of change and who remarkably seem to have given no indication that on reflection they may have got it wrong up until now. Instead, we hear of them putting out feelers to agitate for effectively turning the clock back to the 1950s and reconstituting the Lanarkshire and Lothians League!

Nah, with the borderline - literally! - exception of Harthill, these applications should be answered with a "Thanks for your interest, but..." and politely rejected with a recommendation to apply for the EOS, regardless of how much butthurt it will cause to some of the committees involved.

[Ginaro]

12 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Nah, with the borderline - literally! - exception of Harthill, these applications should be answered with a "Thanks for your interest, but..." and politely rejected with a recommendation to apply for the EOS, regardless of how much butthurt it will cause to some of the committees involved.

That is of course what should happen - though if the WOS is planning on putting all the new clubs together in their own division below the conferences, would they have enough new applicants from west of Harthill to form a division with a decent amount of clubs? Therefore it might be in their interest - but not that of the EOS and the overall pyramid - to accept the WL clubs.

[LongTimeLurker]

When I floated that angle past parkcircus a few days back he soon responded that most of the 14 expressions of interest (?) were not from WL and any new division was likely to be very much west in content.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

That is of course what should happen - though if the WOS is planning on putting all the new clubs together in their own division below the conferences, would they have enough new applicants from west of Harthill to form a division with a decent amount of clubs? Therefore it might be in their interest - but not that of the EOS and the overall pyramid - to accept the WL clubs.

Going by the Glasgow Perthshire manager there was 12 amateurs interested. Colin Boyd's last count was 14 but did not include most of the East Region Juniors at the time. Depending on grounds they could get to double digits based on that.

If its a youth/amateurs stepping up not sure they would be totally against a relatively small division. As getting access to the Development League and licencing would be the broader part of the package for them in signing up for the pyramid.

[glensmad]

Going by the Glasgow Perthshire manager......

There wasn't much in that interview that was close to reality, to be honest.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, 8MileBU said:

It’s an admin shambles. On the face of it, at a glance, for most folk it would seem the sensible thing to do would be to set the boundaries usual traditional county lines and postcodes, i.e existing West Lothian clubs in EOSFL meaning any new West Lothian applicants looking to go Senior should get placed in EOSFL. 

However in Harthill’s case it’s understandable that there’s a case they should be maybe be lumped into the WL lot given their close proximity to the likes of Whitburn/Armadale. Technically though, Harthill is North Lanarkshire and this particular county is where things get skewed and complicated and you can’t create boundaries based on existing or traditional county lines.

Harhill Royal based in a village in North Lanarkshire, could apply and be accepted into the WOSFL. 

Caledonian Braves, also based in North Lanarkshire are playing in the SOSFL.

Then you have Cumbernauld Colts,  representing a town in North Lanarkshire playing in the Lowland League, which is currently predominantly made up of mostly former EOS/ERSJFA sides.  

Harthill's ground is, however, in Greenrigg, West Lothian.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, glensmad said:

Caledonian Braves' proper team are in the Lowland League. It's their reserves who are in the SoSFL.
 

Would their Reserves be accepted into the WoS ?

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

I must admit, it's a subsidiary concern - as I alluded to earlier in respect of the interview with Billy Adams, it's clear that the WOS already has at least some teams that either actively didn't want to leave the Juniors, but were railroaded into doing so by the WR shutting up shop, along with a few that going by club statements seemed sufficiently wrong-footed by the pace of events that they didn't seem entirely sure what had just happened.

in that climate the last thing that's needed is to bring in another group of clubs from outside the natural catchment area who number amongst the most intransigent to the concept of change and who remarkably seem to have given no indication that on reflection they may have got it wrong up until now. Instead, we hear of them putting out feelers to agitate for effectively turning the clock back to the 1950s and reconstituting the Lanarkshire and Lothians League!

Nah, with the borderline - literally! - exception of Harthill, these applications should be answered with a "Thanks for your interest, but..." and politely rejected with a recommendation to apply for the EOS, regardless of how much butthurt it will cause to some of the committees involved.

If the other West Lothian Juniors allegedly wanting to move to the WoS are politely rejected (for whatever reason) would it still make sense for Harthill to pursue a move to the WoS?

[Hillonearth]

15 minutes ago, Dev said:

If the other West Lothian Juniors allegedly wanting to move to the WoS are politely rejected (for whatever reason) would it still make sense for Harthill to pursue a move to the WoS?

Purely geographical in that instance...Harthill is in North Lanarkshire, so at least there's a starting point for debate there a la Luncarty in the EOS as the park's a matter of yards across the border.

ETA - If it's made clear that their application would be the only one of the former ER clubs considered for the reasons above it would be interesting to see if they continued with it.

I suspect  not.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Hillonearth

[8MileBU]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

Harthill's ground is, however, in Greenrigg, West Lothian.

The postal address of Harthill’s ground is 10 Baillie Avenue, Harthill, ML7 5QW...

It gets even better in terms of nitpicking where their ground is when you look at it on maps though because we are literally talking about “a bawhair” levels of dubiety. 

The ground is clear on the bottom right of the shot I’ve taken and the red marker I’ve placed is the sign saying “Harthill”... 

Edited February 28, 2021 by 8MileBU

[Marten]

3 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Would the WOSFL be pressured into accepting Colts sides if offered a pot full of gold? Money does talk.

 

As the regulations now stand, reserve sides can't get promoted into either the LL, or SPFL. So they need to convince  both to change that rule. If the SPFL keep the door closed for colt teams being shoehorned in League 2 (hopefully they will!), they will be unlikely to change their rules to allow colt teams being promoted from tier 5. So even if the LL change their rules, the ugly sisters won't be able to get any higher than the LL, which I doubt they will be interested in.

[Dev]

53 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

The postal address of Harthill’s ground is 10 Baillie Avenue, Harthill, ML7 5QW...

It gets even better in terms of nitpicking where their ground is when you look at it on maps though because we are literally talking about “a bawhair” levels of dubiety. 

The ground is clear on the bottom right of the shot I’ve taken and the red marker I’ve placed is the sign saying “Harthill”... 

But the ground isn't showing as being in Lanarkshire. There's already a senior league which covers the Lothians.

Luncarty moved to their nearest senior league which meant going south not east.

[Pyramidic]

On 15/02/2021 at 13:40, Pyramidic said:

An important meeting on 1st March:

 

February 15, 2021

Special General Meeting

West of Scotland Football League hereafter referred to as WoSFL.

Scottish Lowland Football League hereafter referred to as SLFL.

Special General Meeting hereafter referred to as SGM.

Interim Management Group hereafter referred to as IMG.

I have received an application signed by 10 clubs requesting a SGMin accordance with the current Constitution and Rules. 

6.6 Special General Meetings

6.6.1 Member Clubs shall have power to call a Special General Meeting. A Special General Meeting will be called on receipt of a requisition signed by ten Full Member Clubs within fourteen days after such requisition has been received. The requisition must state the business for which the meeting is called and this is the only business that can be concluded at the Special General Meeting concerned. Each Full Member Club whose subscription for the current season has been paid shall be entitled to send two representatives to all Special General Meetings.

That SGM will take place on Monday 1^st March 2021 at 7PM and will be by Zoom due to the Covid restrictions.

Business of the meeting.

1) Proposals to alter the Constitution and Rules of the WoSFL.

2) Election of Management Board to facilitate handover from SLFL.

3) Election of representatives to the Scottish FA Non Professional Game Board and the Scottish FA Congress.

History and purpose behind the 3 items on the agenda.

The WoSFL was set up by the SLFL in 2020 and the Constitution and Rules was set up to allow administration of the League. People from within the membership were co-opted onto a sub-committee of the SLFL to look after that administration. In line with the constitution, I was also co-opted as a neutral to take up the position of Secretary.

Dave McKenna was appointed as Chair and Andrew Waddell was appointed as Treasurer.

That sub-committee took up the name of Interim Management Group of the WoSFL.

4 Governance

4.1 The governance and business of the League will rest with the Board of the Scottish Lowland Football League until such time as the Board and Office Bearers are elected, no later than March 2021.

In accordance with the above Rule the SLFL are handing over Governance to the WoSFL membership and the SGM has been called to facilitate the handover. During their time of administration of the WoSFL the IMG have identified that certain rules within the Constitution and Rules would not suit the needs of the WoSFL and would hamper the progress of the League. We have 67 clubs in membership and that looks likely to increase. We believe that the WoSFL would be better served by 3 secretaries rather than just 1 and therefore propose that we should have a General Secretary, a Discipline Secretary and a Fixture Secretary. We also appreciate that finding the right people to fulfil the Office Bearer roles of the 3 Secretaries and a Treasurer that are not already connected to a member club and are unwilling to give up their role with their club would be nigh on impossible, so we are also proposing that these roles are open to anyone as long as they are proposed and seconded by member clubs. In all likelihood the people with the knowledge and experience required will be with a club so we need the Constitution and Rules altered to allow us to elect the right people for the roles.

The proposed changes have been attached to the message sent to the Club Secretaries and can also be found on the Club Admin Site.

The second item on the agenda will be to form the Management Board of the WoSFL.

Anyone interested in any of the positions on the Board (Chair, Vice-Chair, General Secretary, Discipline Secretary, Fixture Secretary, Treasurer or Club Representative) should fill in the form to be found on the website. It can be found here – West of Scotland Football League (wosfl.co.uk) under Join the WOSFL. 

Apply for the WOSFL Board (google.com)

The closing date and time for applications is Monday 22^nd February 2021 at 8PM.

The applications will then be processed and put forward for the SGM.

A full agenda with the proposals, candidates and procedure will be sent out with the invite to the meeting to all club secretaries prior to the meeting.

The third item will be to elect representatives from the new Board to the Scottish FA Non Professional Game Board and the Scottish FA Congress. 

The SGM will be closed following the election of the Board and a General Meeting will then take place to allow discussion on a few topics that need addressed.

Kennie Young

Secretary

IMG of PDM Buildbase WoSFL

Tomorrow night - Monday 1st March - the WOSFL SGM is being held. In my view it is essential that the administrative boundary of the League is addressed in the Constitution.

This will be covered in:

“Business of the meeting.

1) Proposals to alter the Constitution and Rules of the WoSFL.”

Clubs should have already received copies of the Proposed Constitution which will be considered at the Zoom meeting.

My key questions are:

1. Does the Proposed Constitution define the administrative boundary of the league?

2. If NO, should this key issue have been addressed?

3. If YES, is West Lothian within or outwith the administrative boundary covered by the league?

The point that I am making is that if the league’s administrative boundary is not covered and resolved at the SGM the West Lothian issue is likely to fester and grow. 

The position may be taken by the interim league management that this issue will be addressed after league officials are elected and discussions have taken place with the EOSFL and SOSFL over the next month or so. While this may appear a sensible and logical way forward it is going to leave the West Lothian issue wide open to further speculation and unrest until the position is ratified at the League AGM.

West Lothian clubs and others may be left sitting on the fence wondering whether their respective futures lie in the West or the East. Then there are the wider implications for the Tayside clubs.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Pyramidic

[never been to scotland]

I really do not see what the West/East boundary has got to do with the Tayside clubs.