New clubs in the West of Scotland

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Spyro said:

Totally agree with what you say but even if the first 2 rounds were loosely regionalised (North and South for example) then you may get to play against teams from another league and then when the cup goes All-In, it will be Round 3 and the small teams who make it that far will have much more incentive to stretch themselves into playing these games

It wasn't that long ago even the SCC was regionalised. 

Properly funded competition I'm sure there will be those keen with signing up. 

The SJC model of relying on gate receipts to cover guarantees hurts the smaller clubs. We're seeing the current SCC model struggle scaling up which is why it's being reviewed. 

When people bring up the FA Vase and Trophy they usually miss out on the £1m+ prize fund that helps make it happen. 

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, Rockall said:

I'm not saying it should already be ratified, I'm simply pointing out both league structures for newbies joining are unknown. It's full of ifs/maybes/i'm guessing.  Both yourself and Ginaro have confirmed a new club would be venturing into the unknown. 

I hope we know more after the WoS and EoS meetings which i believe take place in the 1st of March. How long does it take for official word to trickle out of these meetings?

Pointing out something which is always going to be case for any league which accepts applications from new clubs isn't exactly a great point to be making! I mean, how is a league meant to know precisely what the bottom of their league structure is going to be until such a time the new clubs are accepted into the league?

Any WL club remaining Junior is also venturing into the unknown - can you tell us what the league structure of the East Region will be next season?

We've pointed out what can happen with the various scenarios, not much else we can do.

I can understand Harthill or those who are always in the lower divisions of the East Region moving west. But for a club like Whitburn whose manager was making noises about being ambitious recently, moving to the WOS is likely to mean they are in effectively the 10th tier next season (and possibly longer). 

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Rockall said:

I believe the 3 applications that have already been received were input before a certain WL club, who seem to be the driving force behind a push to the WoS, started trying to turn heads. 

I think the poster above hit the nail on the head. The most sensible thing to do would be to apply for both leagues and see how it all pans out.

A while ago here on P&B the certain club was supposed to have been Armadale. At the time I suggested that the others, especially Harthill, may be being used as a kind of cover  in order to get Armadale into senior football but in a different league from some clubs which were traitors to the Juniors. All of this is supposition I must add.

Whitburn's "uncertainty about which league to go for" came to the surface after Armadale's efforts, allegedly.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Dev
.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I can understand Harthill or those who are always in the lower divisions of the East Region moving west. But for a club like Whitburn whose manager was making noises about being ambitious recently, moving to the WOS is likely to mean they are in effectively the 10th tier next season (and possibly longer). 

When the clocks stopped in the East circa 2018 Fauldhouse were getting promoted to the Superleague. Bathgate had been a longstanding Premier team having just avoided relegation. Whitburn were only relegated by 2 points. Pumpherston were getting promoted with Armadale a contender as I believe there was meant to be a playoff with the North runner up.

With Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness gone and far fewer Tayside teams in the EoSFL none of those teams should be thinking about being in the bottom for long.

Part of me still thinks these teams are running away from Tayside teams getting into the EoSFL more than anything. I mean they must still talk with each other and have an indication on what Tayside are doing this year.

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

When the clocks stopped in the East circa 2018 Fauldhouse were getting promoted to the Superleague. Bathgate had been a longstanding Premier team having just avoided relegation. Whitburn were only relegated by 2 points. Pumpherston were getting promoted with Armadale a contender as I believe there was meant to be a playoff with the North runner up.

With Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness gone and far fewer Tayside teams in the EoSFL none of those teams should be thinking about being in the bottom for long.

Part of me still thinks these teams are running away from Tayside teams getting into the EoSFL more than anything. I mean they must still talk with each other and have an indication on what Tayside are doing this year.

Indeed - and what a turnaround for Fauldhouse. About to return to the proper Superleague, playing in progressively smaller regional divisions and then joining the 10th tier of the WOS.

Paradoxically Tayside getting into the EOS means more teams and thus more regionalisation, so it would only be those clubs at Premier and First level that would be travelling up there.

[Myles Offside]

20 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think rules were changed so there would be no more replays? My impression was challenging but not impossible to do it alongside the SCC, but maybe the WoS will now amend its rules in that regard once the LL no longer pulls the strings to make it easier? Personally hope the SJC and SCC get merged into something bigger and better than both eventually and that West Lothian clubs (Harthill are arguably really Lanarkshire) do wind up in the EoS, but find it bizarre to see Burnieman of all people trying to argue that Whitburn and co could stay in the SJFA and enter the SJC as things stand at the moment from the EoS.

You don't need to counter every single argument from an opponent with its reverse when you are debating something and will tend to just wind up undermining your credibility if you do so in a manner that is far-fetched at best and disingenuous at worst. A more sensible approach might have been to talk up the virtues of playing stronger LL clubs like Kelty, Berwick Rangers, East Stirlingshire, Bonnyrigg, BSC, Spartans, East Kilbride and Bo'ness United in the SCC, because the SJC is now reduced in scope to something that is not even close to the competition that we grew up with.

FTFY

[Pyramidic]

Those of us that regularly visit P&B pick up certain vibes and I can now see a very interesting scenario developing which relates to the East Region clubs and the way that the WOSFL / EOSFL boundary issue is handled.

The EOSFL in my view has always been a very progressive league and has allowed clubs outwith its main catchment area to participate in the league. We have seen clubs from the South of Scotland play in the EOSFL including Annan Athletic, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers and Gretna 2008. We have recently seen a place offered to Clydebank that was not taken up. The administrative boundaries of the league has remained flexible which allowed such moves.

A situation has arisen in the context of the West Lothian clubs where the EOSFL boundary would not be flexible but would be fixed. This would represent a major shift in policy. There would appear to be two options that can be followed:


Fixed Boundary:

This would define the WOSFL/ EOSFL boundary. The expectation is that West Lothian would be within the EOSFL catchment area. Justification would be on the basis of history using the same boundary that defined the West Region and East Region of the Junior grade. Clubs like Armadale Thistle, Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Livingston United, Pumpherston Juniors, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United and Whitburn Juniors would all be included in the administrative area of the EOSFL. Harthill Royal might be treated as an exception / anomaly given their geographical position.

At the same time the Tayside / EOSFL boundary would also need to be fixed for Tier 6 and below. The delineation of the boundary using the existing LL / HL Tay definition would allow Scone Thistle and Tayport to join the EOSFL. The rest of the 15 Tayside clubs that are located north of the Tay boundary would be outwith the EOSFL administrative area and would not qualify for inclusion in the East of Scotland under any circumstances.

If the above boundaries are being sorted out it will also become necessary to address the EOSFL /  SOSFL boundary and the WOSFL/ SOSFL boundary in order to ensure a consistent approach. This is where the Fixed Boundary position becomes more confusing and possibly could hamper the future development and progression of clubs that fall within the SOSFL administrative area.


Flexible Boundary:

This approach enables clubs to choose what league they prefer to participate in and their acceptance would be dependent on the votes cast by existing members.

This approach would mean that the West Lothian clubs can apply to either the EOSFL or WOSFL (or for that matter the SOSFL).

The approach would provide a “mix and match” formula that avoids hard boundaries. The approach may sound a little odd but has been consistently followed by the EOSFL and SOSFL.

The approach would mean that the Tay boundary can be challenged by the the 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay who can make a case either as a group or individually for membership of the EOSFL.


The Crossroads:

I believe that we are currently in a fascinating position witnessing the latest episode how Non League / Semi-Professional football is going to evolve over the next couple of months.

1. If Fixed Boundaries are established we are likely to see the West Lothian clubs participating in the EOSFL along with possibly Scone Thistle and Tayport. The 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay will be excluded. The administrative area of the EOSFL will of course need to be subject to the final approval of member clubs. I suppose that ratification would also be necessary by the WOSFL and SOSFL for their respective administrative areas.

2. If Flexible Boundaries are retained it will enable the West Lothian clubs to apply (successfully?) to the WOSFL. It also opens the doors for the 17 Tayside clubs to apply as a group and individually to join the EOSFL. Such a movement of clubs would of course be dependent on the willingness of the existing membership to accept the influx. 

3. The inclusion of the Tayside clubs is a challenging issue that brings both positive and negative aspects. It also introduces the need for regionalisation rather than a “tower“ pyramid.

4. In my book if the West Lothian clubs are allowed to join the WOSFL there is every justification for the Tayside clubs to make a case for inclusion within the the EOSFL in order to avoid being left in the equivalent of the “badlands” which Senior football is reluctant to settle.


NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

[Quotation Marks]

22 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Those of us that regularly visit P&B pick up certain vibes and I can now see a very interesting scenario developing which relates to the East Region clubs and the way that the WOSFL / EOSFL boundary issue is handled.

The EOSFL in my view has always been a very progressive league and has allowed clubs outwith its main catchment area to participate in the league. We have seen clubs from the South of Scotland play in the EOSFL including Annan Athletic, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers and Gretna 2008. We have recently seen a place offered to Clydebank that was not taken up. The administrative boundaries of the league has remained flexible which allowed such moves.

A situation has arisen in the context of the West Lothian clubs where the EOSFL boundary would not be flexible but would be fixed. This would represent a major shift in policy. There would appear to be two options that can be followed:


Fixed Boundary:

This would define the WOSFL/ EOSFL boundary. The expectation is that West Lothian would be within the EOSFL catchment area. Justification would be on the basis of history using the same boundary that defined the West Region and East Region of the Junior grade. Clubs like Armadale Thistle, Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Livingston United, Pumpherston Juniors, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United and Whitburn Juniors would all be included in the administrative area of the EOSFL. Harthill Royal might be treated as an exception / anomaly given their geographical position.

At the same time the Tayside / EOSFL boundary would also need to be fixed for Tier 6 and below. The delineation of the boundary using the existing LL / HL Tay definition would allow Scone Thistle and Tayport to join the EOSFL. The rest of the 15 Tayside clubs that are located north of the Tay boundary would be outwith the EOSFL administrative area and would not qualify for inclusion in the East of Scotland under any circumstances.

If the above boundaries are being sorted out it will also become necessary to address the EOSFL /  SOSFL boundary and the WOSFL/ SOSFL boundary in order to ensure a consistent approach. This is where the Fixed Boundary position becomes more confusing and possibly could hamper the future development and progression of clubs that fall within the SOSFL administrative area.


Flexible Boundary:

This approach enables clubs to choose what league they prefer to participate in and their acceptance would be dependent on the votes cast by existing members.

This approach would mean that the West Lothian clubs can apply to either the EOSFL or WOSFL (or for that matter the SOSFL).

The approach would provide a “mix and match” formula that avoids hard boundaries. The approach may sound a little odd but has been consistently followed by the EOSFL and SOSFL.

The approach would mean that the Tay boundary can be challenged by the the 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay who can make a case either as a group or individually for membership of the EOSFL.


The Crossroads:

I believe that we are currently in a fascinating position witnessing the latest episode how Non League / Semi-Professional football is going to evolve over the next couple of months.

1. If Fixed Boundaries are established we are likely to see the West Lothian clubs participating in the EOSFL along with possibly Scone Thistle and Tayport. The 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay will be excluded. The administrative area of the EOSFL will of course need to be subject to the final approval of member clubs. I suppose that ratification would also be necessary by the WOSFL and SOSFL for their respective administrative areas.

2. If Flexible Boundaries are retained it will enable the West Lothian clubs to apply (successfully?) to the WOSFL. It also opens the doors for the 17 Tayside clubs to apply as a group and individually to join the EOSFL. Such a movement of clubs would of course be dependent on the willingness of the existing membership to accept the influx. 

3. The inclusion of the Tayside clubs is a challenging issue that brings both positive and negative aspects. It also introduces the need for regionalisation rather than a “tower“ pyramid.

4. In my book if the West Lothian clubs are allowed to join the WOSFL there is every justification for the Tayside clubs to make a case for inclusion within the the EOSFL in order to avoid being left in the equivalent of the “badlands” which Senior football is reluctant to settle.


NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

Excellent post and it will be fascinating to see how it plays out. It had slipped my mind that Clydebank had previously been offered an EoS place.

[Sergeant Wilson]

16 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

Excellent post and it will be fascinating to see how it plays out. It had slipped my mind that Clydebank had previously been offered an EoS place.

Before there was a West of Scotland league.

[AlanCamelonfan]

16 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

Excellent post and it will be fascinating to see how it plays out. It had slipped my mind that Clydebank had previously been offered an EoS place.

Difference was then their was no west feeder so had to go east or south. So that isnt justification of anything

[Hillonearth]

5 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Those of us that regularly visit P&B pick up certain vibes and I can now see a very interesting scenario developing which relates to the East Region clubs and the way that the WOSFL / EOSFL boundary issue is handled.

The EOSFL in my view has always been a very progressive league and has allowed clubs outwith its main catchment area to participate in the league. We have seen clubs from the South of Scotland play in the EOSFL including Annan Athletic, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers and Gretna 2008. We have recently seen a place offered to Clydebank that was not taken up. The administrative boundaries of the league has remained flexible which allowed such moves.

A situation has arisen in the context of the West Lothian clubs where the EOSFL boundary would not be flexible but would be fixed. This would represent a major shift in policy. There would appear to be two options that can be followed:


Fixed Boundary:

This would define the WOSFL/ EOSFL boundary. The expectation is that West Lothian would be within the EOSFL catchment area. Justification would be on the basis of history using the same boundary that defined the West Region and East Region of the Junior grade. Clubs like Armadale Thistle, Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Livingston United, Pumpherston Juniors, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United and Whitburn Juniors would all be included in the administrative area of the EOSFL. Harthill Royal might be treated as an exception / anomaly given their geographical position.

At the same time the Tayside / EOSFL boundary would also need to be fixed for Tier 6 and below. The delineation of the boundary using the existing LL / HL Tay definition would allow Scone Thistle and Tayport to join the EOSFL. The rest of the 15 Tayside clubs that are located north of the Tay boundary would be outwith the EOSFL administrative area and would not qualify for inclusion in the East of Scotland under any circumstances.

If the above boundaries are being sorted out it will also become necessary to address the EOSFL /  SOSFL boundary and the WOSFL/ SOSFL boundary in order to ensure a consistent approach. This is where the Fixed Boundary position becomes more confusing and possibly could hamper the future development and progression of clubs that fall within the SOSFL administrative area.


Flexible Boundary:

This approach enables clubs to choose what league they prefer to participate in and their acceptance would be dependent on the votes cast by existing members.

This approach would mean that the West Lothian clubs can apply to either the EOSFL or WOSFL (or for that matter the SOSFL).

The approach would provide a “mix and match” formula that avoids hard boundaries. The approach may sound a little odd but has been consistently followed by the EOSFL and SOSFL.

The approach would mean that the Tay boundary can be challenged by the the 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay who can make a case either as a group or individually for membership of the EOSFL.


The Crossroads:

I believe that we are currently in a fascinating position witnessing the latest episode how Non League / Semi-Professional football is going to evolve over the next couple of months.

1. If Fixed Boundaries are established we are likely to see the West Lothian clubs participating in the EOSFL along with possibly Scone Thistle and Tayport. The 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay will be excluded. The administrative area of the EOSFL will of course need to be subject to the final approval of member clubs. I suppose that ratification would also be necessary by the WOSFL and SOSFL for their respective administrative areas.

2. If Flexible Boundaries are retained it will enable the West Lothian clubs to apply (successfully?) to the WOSFL. It also opens the doors for the 17 Tayside clubs to apply as a group and individually to join the EOSFL. Such a movement of clubs would of course be dependent on the willingness of the existing membership to accept the influx. 

3. The inclusion of the Tayside clubs is a challenging issue that brings both positive and negative aspects. It also introduces the need for regionalisation rather than a “tower“ pyramid.

4. In my book if the West Lothian clubs are allowed to join the WOSFL there is every justification for the Tayside clubs to make a case for inclusion within the the EOSFL in order to avoid being left in the equivalent of the “badlands” which Senior football is reluctant to settle.


NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

Those exceptions were made for entirely different reasons - the SOS sides wanted to progress from the essentially-amateur league they were in, and Clydebank had no viable alternative at the time as no senior league existed in the West for them to join. Boundaries will probably require to be set as a matter of some urgency, as entertaining these speculative applications from West Lothian will open a can of worms for the future...as has been said, with that precedent set, the EOS wouldn't have a leg to stand on regarding accommodating the Tayside teams, and what would be to stop the likes of say Banks O'Dee who apparently (and probably rightly) were aggrieved at the way their application to the HFL was treated applying to go EOS?

By all means, make an exception for Harthill due to geography. After that you're making ever more specious arguments: "Ah, but Whitburn's only another couple of miles...and Stoneyburn's just a couple more, and West Calder another couple..." in a daisy chain right across West Lothian until you reach the likes of Pumpherston which is about five miles from the outskirts of Edinburgh.

There's also the question of the numerical imbalance that already exists between east and west which no-one seems to have mentioned thus far which would only be exacerbated by this...we'd be talking 80+ sides on one side of the country and less than 50 on the other...and all for what reason?

Because some folk feel they have burned their bridges and don't want to eat crow in front of others they've disparaged in the past.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is the only reason this is even being discussed.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Hillonearth

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Those exceptions were made for entirely different reasons - the SOS sides wanted to progress from the essentially-amateur league they were in, and Clydebank had no viable alternative at the time as no senior league existed in the West for them to join.

All the "SoS" teams played kept their membership in the South of Scotland League a bit like the how Stirling University never resigned from the EoSFL when the first team joined the Lowland League. First teams also playing in the South Cups instead of East ones.

Clydebank intended to apply to the EoSFL but going by their statement on March 28th 2018 https://www.clydebankfc.com/club-statement-3 they were delaying an application until 2019-20. Which would suggest they were never accepted. Also saying it was their best option and would prefer a West of Scotland League if it existed.

The only one that kind of fits is Gretna 2008. As rumour has it were rejected from the South of Scotland. Not sure the exact reason but Gretna 2008 was put together relatively late and scrambled for a ground etc. So the rejection might well have been more timing than anything leaving the EoSFL by default for joining in 2008/09.

[Burnieman]

Those exceptions were made for entirely different reasons - the SOS sides wanted to progress from the essentially-amateur league they were in, and Clydebank had no viable alternative at the time as no senior league existed in the West for them to join. Boundaries will probably require to be set as a matter of some urgency, as entertaining these speculative applications from West Lothian will open a can of worms for the future...as has been said, with that precedent set, the EOS wouldn't have a leg to stand on regarding accommodating the Tayside teams, and what would be to stop the likes of say Banks O'Dee who apparently (and probably rightly) were aggrieved at the way their application to the HFL was treated applying to go EOS?
By all means, make an exception for Harthill due to geography. After that you're making ever more specious arguments: "Ah, but Whitburn's only another couple of miles...and Stoneyburn's just a couple more, and West Calder another couple..." in a daisy chain right across West Lothian until you reach the likes of Pumpherston which is about five miles from the outskirts of Edinburgh.
There's also the question of the numerical imbalance that already exists between east and west which no-one seems to have mentioned thus far which would only be exacerbated by this...we'd be talking 80+ sides on one side of the country and less than 50 on the other...and all for what reason?
Because some folk feel they have burned their bridges and don't want to eat crow in front of others they've disparaged in the past.
Let's no lose sight of the fact that this is the only reason this is even being discussed.

Case closed.

[Ginaro]

Gretna were reformed on 2nd July 2008, played their first game 10 days later, and were accepted into the EOS four days later. The simplest explanation for them joining the EOS is that they had a opening in their First Division of 11 clubs at this late stage before the season, and perhaps the SOS said "no" as they already had 14 clubs. Maybe Gretna also wanted to join a more competitive league.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Quotation Marks said:

Excellent post and it will be fascinating to see how it plays out. It had slipped my mind that Clydebank had previously been offered an EoS place.

But there was no WoS to go to then! Only SoS which was not liked in the same way that Talbot wouldn't go there either.

Luncarty went EoS as they wanted to open up the possibility of applying for an SFA club licence - again no other local alternative available.

Now there are three senior feeder leagues in the south so why on earth choose to play out of area - remembering that the WoS covers Ayrshire and not only Glasgow/Lanarkshire. Why should truly western clubs travel to West Lothian when such clubs already have an established local senior league?

If West Lothian becomes WoS then all W Lothian clubs should go there. Why not Falkirk and Stirling, etc, etc! The line needs to be drawn somewhere otherwise chaos. maybe this is the idea of "Juniors Revenge" ? (No not really).

Perhaps wrongly, I fear for any W Lothian club which applies only to the WoS.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

But there was no WoS to go to then! Only SoS which was not liked in the same way that Talbot wouldn't go there either.

Luncarty went EoS as they wanted to open up the possibility of applying for an SFA club licence - again no other local alternative available.

Now there are three senior feeder leagues in the south so why on earth choose to play out of area - remembering that the WoS covers Ayrshire and not only Glasgow/Lanarkshire. Why should truly western clubs travel to West Lothian when such clubs already have an established local senior league?

If West Lothian becomes WoS then all W Lothian clubs should go there. Why not Falkirk and Stirling, etc, etc! The line needs to be drawn somewhere otherwise chaos. maybe this is the idea of "Juniors Revenge" ? (No not really).

Perhaps wrongly, I fear for any W Lothian club which applies only to the WoS.

I think most who apply to the WOS, if not all (other than Harthill, but that's a special story), will apply to both. The risk would be too great to not do so. If there is only one club not applying to both and then all WL clubs other than Harthill get denied entry to the WOS, the only place they can go is the remainder of the ERJFA, which will all be Tayside. Considering the fact that the ERJFA got regionalised because WL clubs didn't want to travel to Tayside, so to be the only WL club in a Tayside league will not be something they'd want.

[Junior Pub League]

7 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Before there was a West of Scotland league.

And never forget that those "guid Jooner men" put up every conceivable block to a club wanting to join a higher and better grade of football.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Marten said:

I think most who apply to the WOS, if not all (other than Harthill, but that's a special story), will apply to both. The risk would be too great to not do so. If there is only one club not applying to both and then all WL clubs other than Harthill get denied entry to the WOS, the only place they can go is the remainder of the ERJFA, which will all be Tayside. Considering the fact that the ERJFA got regionalised because WL clubs didn't want to travel to Tayside, so to be the only WL club in a Tayside league will not be something they'd want.

I see that Harthill's position has the possibility of leaving them without a place in a senior league. If a boundary is formed between the WoS and the EoS why on earth would it be draw with an indent into West Lothian allowing any particular club to go to the WoS?

After all the Wos is not the Central Scotland League. Some Central Scottish clubs go east and others west depending upon the traditional county boundary. Simples.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Dev
.

[Pyramidic]

8 hours ago, Dev said:

I see that Harthill's position has the possibility of leaving them without a place in a senior league. If a boundary is formed between the WoS and the EoS why on earth would it be draw with an indent into West Lothian allowing any particular club to go to the WoS?

After all the Wos is not the Central Scotland League. Some Central Scottish clubs go east and others west depending upon the traditional county boundary. Simples.

Agreed. They would perhaps be left in the position of having to submit an emergency application to the SOSFL who have a later deadline for applications. But if the SOSFL have also accepted the principle of “newly defined” administrative areas, Harthill would be left in void.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Pyramidic

[Marshmallo]

On 25/02/2021 at 23:23, stanley said:

Yes, it would certainly be best to avoid a situation where Lowland League clubs get to decide which league they get relegated into. Opens up lots of potential issues. If there are no borders then how can any clubs be turned down? 

We already have this with the farcical SoS overlapping with WoS territory at tier 6.