New clubs in the West of Scotland

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

8 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Perhaps retaining membership of the SJFA and entry into the Junior Cup is the other requirement.

They can do that in the EoS if they want.

Kind of another example of short-sightedness. The WoS Premier next season will be 38 games and potentially have the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel, Irvine Meadow competing in the Scottish Cup. The WoSFL Cup will get played for the first time presumably and has the potential to hit 80+ entrants if the number of applicants turn out to be successful.

Don't think the Junior Cup will be that an important target to get played within WoS circles. Then in 2022-23 even more clubs will have gotten licenced and entering the Scottish Cup.

[rockson]

2 hours ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Would love to see Oban Saints or Rothsay Brandane in the WoS..

Where does their ground sit in comparison to the midline of the Tay Bridge?

(I know that boundary is only defined for relegation into the Lowland League not promotion to it but it's an interesting point.)

[Spyro]

2 minutes ago, rockson said:

Where does their ground sit in comparison to the midline of the Tay Bridge?

(I know that boundary is only defined for relegation into the Lowland League not promotion to it but it's an interesting point.)

It’s close. Think it might be different if you set up the map to true north and magnetic north... cue 3 weeks of debate on whether they are HL or LL now 

[Burnieman]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Kind of another example of short-sightedness. The WoS Premier next season will be 38 games and potentially have the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel, Irvine Meadow competing in the Scottish Cup. The WoSFL Cup will get played for the first time presumably and has the potential to hit 80+ entrants if the number of applicants turn out to be successful.

Don't think the Junior Cup will be that an important target to get played within WoS circles. Then in 2022-23 even more clubs will have gotten licenced and entering the Scottish Cup.

If the EoS is null/void this season, and it is a real possibility the way things are going, then any club that joins the EoS next season is a Conference win away from the Premier, or a top half finish from the First Division.

How far are they away from that in the WoS? I read on here that they intend to go P - 1 - 2 - 3 next season, and new entrants would be in a divison 4, is that right?

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, rockson said:

Where does their ground sit in comparison to the midline of the Tay Bridge?

(I know that boundary is only defined for relegation into the Lowland League not promotion to it but it's an interesting point.)

South of it.

[PastyMan]

Out of interest, how did the SJFA regions define their geography?

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Burnieman said:

If the EoS is null/void this season, and it is a real possibility the way things are going, then any club that joins the EoS next season is a Conference win away from the Premier, or a top half finish from the First Division.

How far are they away from that in the WoS? I read on here that they intend to go P - 1 - 2 - 3 next season, and new entrants would be in a divison 4, is that right?

If they're talking about getting things regionalised at the bottom, do you think they're looking up

They've proven themselves happy to be basement dwellers. Glasgow Perthshire don't have to worry about delusions of grandeur

Thanks to teams pulling out the WoS has at least known it would be the Premier and 3x Tier 7 Conferences below next year. The Tier 7 Conferences creating the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Divisions for 2022-23.

What's an unknown right now are where new applicants will fit in. There's looking like too many to add to the Tier 7 Conferences. Suggestion it will be a Division/Conferences below Tier 7 in 2021-22 with them fitting in at the bottom somehow in 2022-23 (As a 4th Division /Regionalised 3rd Division presumably). Meaning next year  they'd a defacto Tier 10 and maybe Tier 9 in 2022-23.

[Arthurlie1981]

Kind of another example of short-sightedness. The WoS Premier next season will be 38 games and potentially have the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel, Irvine Meadow competing in the Scottish Cup. The WoSFL Cup will get played for the first time presumably and has the potential to hit 80+ entrants if the number of applicants turn out to be successful.
Don't think the Junior Cup will be that an important target to get played within WoS circles. Then in 2022-23 even more clubs will have gotten licenced and entering the Scottish Cup.

I’ve said it before that in the summer I spoke to a number of people involved with clubs in the west who all said similar thing and that was they were very likely to consider not renewing the junior membership for next season. One told me that they did it due to not being able to consult with their fans but having read messages online it is was likely fans were happy to not renew. Another said they did it as they had to make the decision quickly but regretted it as the couldn’t see how the junior cup could ever be fitted into the season without it being regionalised as it will possibly be a midweek tournament as other tournaments will take precedence. I did hear another person say that their club would likely use the junior cup for their development squad and fringe players as it is totally devalued.

It’s a sad end but hopefully it can be completed next season for the 5 (I think) clubs remaining. After that it should be put out to pasture imo.

[Rockall]

2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

They all (or at least most) of them decided to stick together as a West Lothian league after getting the ERJFA regionalised and thought they could make a go of it and expand it. They used to have inter-club committee quiz nights where this was discussed. I think at that time they also believed there would still be a reasonably large WRJFA operating.

Then the WoS happened, and I know some felt they had been shafted by their friends in the West leaving the Juniors en-masse. All of a sudden they were the only Juniors south of Tayside.

Livvy decided they had seen enough and applied to the EoS, way too late for this season but made it clear they'd come back this year, and they have.

For those that remain it's a succession of bad decisions over the last 3 years, yet the clubs who left for the EoS are apparently the ones to blame for it all.

It seems some are not learning from their bad decisions.

I'll start off by admitting I support one of the West Lothian teams that are looking to join the pyramid this time round. I believe we should have applied a couple of seasons ago to the EoS and also believe the EoS is probably the route that should still be taken. 

However, the WoS must still be viewed as a viable option. Living on the western boundary of the EoS or the eastern boundary of the WoS is going to cause travel issues regardless of where we fall. But the main issue for me is the fact that no one knows in any detail what the league makeup will look like in either region next season (thanks to the pandemic). We're essentially fumbling around in the dark, which i get is out own fault for not moving sooner. Realistically, what would be the real issues for WL being a mix WoS and EoS? Is there not only 3 WL team currently in the EoS? We're not talking masses are we (before someone points out, yeah I know there are 0 in the WoS currently). As has been pointed out numerous times already, it doesn't need to fit to the council area.

I've only dipped in and out of this thread and the EoS equivalent as what will be will be. There's no point being caught up in "past traditions" as that's exactly what was left behind when teams moved to a new association. As Bestsinceslicebread mentioned, it's a clean slate. I hope whoever makes the decision bases it on facts and not hard feelings towards others. Although if they base a decision around a promise of moving the current WL league as a whole and trying to slot it in as a complete division somewhere, it would  would be extremely shortsighted. 

[Burnieman]

9 minutes ago, Rockall said:

I'll start off by admitting I support one of the West Lothian teams that are looking to join the pyramid this time round. I believe we should have applied a couple of seasons ago to the EoS and also believe the EoS is probably the route that should still be taken. 

However, the WoS must still be viewed as a viable option. Living on the western boundary of the EoS or the eastern boundary of the WoS is going to cause travel issues regardless of where we fall. But the main issue for me is the fact that no one knows in any detail what the league makeup will look like in either region next season (thanks to the pandemic). We're essentially fumbling around in the dark, which i get is out own fault for not moving sooner. Realistically, what would be the real issues for WL being a mix WoS and EoS? Is there not only 3 WL team currently in the EoS? We're not talking masses are we (before someone points out, yeah I know there are 0 in the WoS currently). As has been pointed out numerous times already, it doesn't need to fit to the council area.

I've only dipped in and out of this thread and the EoS equivalent as what will be will be. There's no point being caught up in "past traditions" as that's exactly what was left behind when teams moved to a new association. As Bestsinceslicebread mentioned, it's a clean slate. I hope whoever makes the decision bases it on facts and not hard feelings towards others. Although if they base a decision around a promise of moving the current WL league as a whole and trying to slot it in as a complete division somewhere, it would  would be extremely shortsighted. 

In simple terms, the EoS and WoS need to have boundaries so there is absolute clarity over what clubs go where, particularly those who are thinking of joining, and for those being relegated from above or promoted from below (although the latter doesn't yet exist).  That's how a Pyramid works.

Those leagues are named after and operate in geographical areas of Scotland (as they were in the Juniors), non league football has almost always been about leagues covering geographical areas, Midlothian League, Lanarkshire League, Ayrshire League etc etc, it's something we all understand and rivalries are built up around it, football thrives on it. As you point out, there are already 3 WL clubs in the EoS and they consider the Lothians to be their territory, and rightly so, no different from the ERJFA.

To turn West Lothian into a mixture of clubs from both regions is, to put it mildly, idiocy and why should the EoS accept it, why would they accept the WoS running it's "boundary" upto the outskirts of Edinburgh.  Why have Blackburn in the EoS and Whitburn in WoS when 3 miles separate them and are local rivals, same with say Broxburn and Livvy. What if Whitburn go EoS and Fauldhouse go WoS, or Armadale and Bathgate go in opposite directions what does that really achieve, it does neither any good, there is absolutely no sense to it.  What is to stop a club from Edinburgh fancying the WoS in future, or a club from Lanarkshire fancying the EoS in future. 

That said you're right, ultimately it doesn't need to fit Council areas but it's worked well for the last Century, why change it.  As I have said previously, this isn't about being a good idea or a travel benefit or anything else.  It's about face saving.

 

[stanley]

Yes, it would certainly be best to avoid a situation where Lowland League clubs get to decide which league they get relegated into. Opens up lots of potential issues. If there are no borders then how can any clubs be turned down? 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, stanley said:

Yes, it would certainly be best to avoid a situation where Lowland League clubs get to decide which league they get relegated into. Opens up lots of potential issues. If there are no borders then how can any clubs be turned down? 

It's got nothing to do with the clubs. Its the leagues that decide and its agreed prior to the start of the season. That's why a club like Gretna 2008 would go to the South even though pre pyramid they were in the East and are still a member of the EOSFA. 

[Ginaro]

17 minutes ago, Rockall said:

But the main issue for me is the fact that no one knows in any detail what the league makeup will look like in either region next season (thanks to the pandemic).

That's untrue, we do know a fair bit about next season. 

WOS have said they'll go back to the Premier and Conferences A/B/C that were set prior to the season, with teams who have sat the season out presumably returning. New clubs are apparently going to be put in their own division below that (though not sure what happens if there's only a handful of new clubs accepted?). 

EOS is a bit trickier as presumably things depend on whether or not 50% of games are achieved to call the season otherwise it is null & void. With the former I assume promotion/relegation and restructuring into Premier-First-Second takes place, for the latter I'm guessing they might just redo the season in the same structure and incorporate the new teams.

[Burnieman]

10 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

That's untrue, we do know a fair bit about next season. 

WOS have said they'll go back to the Premier and Conferences A/B/C that were set prior to the season, with teams who have sat the season out presumably returning. New clubs are apparently going to be put in their own division below that (though not sure what happens if there's only a handful of new clubs accepted?). 

EOS is a bit trickier as presumably things depend on whether or not 50% of games are achieved to call the season otherwise it is null & void. With the former I assume promotion/relegation and restructuring into Premier-First-Second takes place, for the latter I'm guessing they might just redo the season in the same structure and incorporate the new teams.

For the EoS, null and void means go again next season with this seasons format.  I expect any new teams to be added to the existing 2 Conferences depending on number, or for the Conferences to be re-jigged into 3, depending on numbers.  For 2022-23, it would go Premier - First - Second (maybe Third).

If the season reaches halfway or more, PPG will be used to decide final placings and the format for 2021-22 will be Premier - First - Second.  Any new applicants will join the Second which could be split into two Conferences, or a new Third Division is created, depending on numbers.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Burnieman

[LongTimeLurker]

12 hours ago, Burnieman said:

12 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Perhaps retaining membership of the SJFA and entry into the Junior Cup is the other requirement.

They can do that in the EoS if they want.

Would @HibeeJibee set aside the fixture dates required for that next season if a newly entering club retains SJFA membership? Would former SJFA members in the EoS be allowed to rejoin at this point and would similar accomodations be made for them?

[Burnieman]

23 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Would @HibeeJibee set aside the fixture dates required for that next season if a newly entering club retains SJFA membership? Would former SJFA members in the EoS be allowed to rejoin at this point and would similar accomodations be made for them?

The EoS have zero interest whether you are an SJFA member or not, neither would they stop you playing games in the Junior Cup (if it continues) as long as it doesn't interfere with the fixture calendar issued at the start of the season. No different from WoS.

SJFA membership is little different from Fife FA membership which some clubs are in order to compete in the Fife Cup.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Burnieman

[LongTimeLurker]

A congested fixture calendar can easily be used to make the SJC participation impractical so it is HibeeJibee that would really need to clarify that before ongoing SJC participation from the EoS could be viewed as a credible possibility. The WoS has an SJFA majority in membership terms while the EoS currently has zero SJFA members. It's abundantly clear who is the more likely of the two to free up prime Saturday fixture dates for it to make away trips up to the north region viable. You have been making a fair enough point about what the traditional geography of east and west has always been in footballing terms, so not sure why you feel a need at this point to move beyond that and start making questionable assertions where future SJC participation is concerned.

[Burnieman]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A congested fixture calendar can easily be used to make the SJC participation impractical so it is HibeeJibee that would really need to clarify that before ongoing SJC participation from the EoS could be viewed as a credible possibility. The WoS has an SJFA majority in membership terms while the EoS currently has zero SJFA members. It's abundantly clear who is the more likely of the two to free up prime Saturday fixture dates for it to make away trips up to the north region viable. You have been making a fair enough point about what the traditional geography of east and west has always been in footballing terms, so not sure why you feel a need at this point to move beyond that and start making questionable assertions where future SJC participation is concerned.

You'd know all about questionable assertions and assumptions, you make them regularly about Tayside/Highland League.

The EoS don't care about SJFA membership, they will not prevent any club retaining membership, or joining.  Just like they take no interest in newly licenced Fife clubs joining the Fife FA and organising these fixtures around the fixture calendar.

Any Junior Cup fixtures will be no different, although the chances of fixtures being on a Saturday are remote, it would mainly be midweek.  That would also be the case in the WoS, where there is talk of regionalising the competition (if it continues) in the early rounds, presumably because fixtures will be mainly midweek.

It's no skin off my nose whether you think that's a credible summary of the position or not.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

What Burnie's talking about is no different that than the official WoSFL stance.

With Colin Boyd and Glasgow Perthshire giving the impression there might be double digit applicants from outside the SJFA and clubs possibly withdrawing from the SJFA we'll see how long the WoSFL ends up having a majority SJFA membership.

Next season the WoS Premier has a 38 game league season to be wrapped up sometime May 2022 and their own 7 round cup competition with a possible handful of SFA members competing in the Scottish Cup (Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel, Irvine Meadow in the SJFA still). I'm not sure how many prime Saturdays they'll be setting aside for the SJC. It's more likely to be an afterthought filling in the gaps where possible.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

...Any Junior Cup fixtures will be no different, although the chances of fixtures being on a Saturday are remote, it would mainly be midweek...

You are perfectly well aware that this alone makes future SJC participation impractical. The EoS and LL have pushed the SCC this season to a bizarre extent given the prevailing circumstances when the obvious priority should have been league games to get seasons complete enough to be able to declare a champion. It is abundantly clear what their priority is in flagship cup tournament terms and it clearly isn't the SJC.