New clubs in the West of Scotland

[Burnieman]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's from an update from the EoS Committee to the membership. So the Board being referenced would be the EoSFL not the SFA. It does though show that the EoSFL consider the Lothians part of its territory which got it into conflict with introducing the East Region into the pyramid.

Fair point.  Those defined areas used to be on the EoS website and mission statement.

[Quotation Marks]

As a supporter of one of the West Lothian clubs that may apply to the pyramid I'm intrigued at the level of debate that's been generated.

As stated multiple times on this thread there is no boundary between the EoS and WoS, as the teams involved are geographically placed in such a way that travel to either region would be pretty much similar why shouldn't they give consideration to WoS? 

I fail to see how having a history in the ERSJFA should limit the Clubs choices regarding what is the best way forward for them. Should a West Lothian club (or a few) decide the WoS is where they wish to start the new chapter of their history, I say 'all the best'. I really don't see how this will damage the pyramid.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Quotation Marks
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[Burnieman]

13 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

As a supporter on one of the West Lothian clubs that may apply to the pyramid I'm intrigued at the level of debate that's been generated.

As stated multiple times on this thread there is no boundary between the EoS and WoS, as the teams involved are geographically placed in such a way that travel to either region would be pretty much similar why shouldn't they give consideration to WoS? 

I fail to see how having a history in the ERSJFA should limit the Clubs choices regarding what is the best way forward for them. Should a West Lothian club (or a few) decide the WoS is where they wish to start the new chapter of their history, I say 'all the best'. I really don't see how this will damage the pyramid.

If you're a supporter of one of the clubs (Bathgate presumably), then you'll appreciate that the Lanarkshire/Lothians boundary has been there for over a century and is understood by everyone, some of your tradition rivals (which is a big part of what football is all about) play in the EoS already. 

Why would a club seek to change that, what logical reason would there be for a West Lothian club to seek to join a west league and remove itself from accepted tradition and local rivalries? If you're looking for a "best way forward" it's not joining a WoS where potentially you're 3 or 4 divisons away from a Premier spot, playing clubs in Ayrshire or Glasgow that mean absolutely nothing to your supporters.

Secondly regarding the Pyramid and this is the important bit, we know Ayrshire and Glasgow are west, we know the Lothians and Edinburgh are east, why should we create what would amount to a confused mess in West Lothian, a mixing bowl of clubs in different regions - what benefit does any club or league gain from doing that? 

I think we know what lies behind some of these clubs wanting to go west, and sadly it has little to do with "best way forward", that much has been made clear.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

Should a West Lothian club (or a few) decide the WoS is where they wish to start the new chapter of their history, I say 'all the best'. I really don't see how this will damage the pyramid.

Not too sure what the local paper situation is in West Lothian. Biggest one I could see is the West Lothian Courier. 

Just as an example that maybe doesn't get a mention. Doesn't it make sense for that paper to have a fairly specialist subject covering Livingston, any promoted teams and the EoSFL. Rather than split that focus at the regional level with WoS /EoS? 

[Quotation Marks]

15 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

If you're a supporter of one of the clubs (Bathgate presumably), then you'll appreciate that the Lanarkshire/Lothians boundary has been there for over a century and is understood by everyone, some of your tradition rivals (which is a big part of what football is all about) play in the EoS already. 

Why would a club seek to change that, what logical reason would there be for a West Lothian club to seek to join a west league and remove itself from accepted tradition and local rivalries? If you're looking for a "best way forward" it's not joining a WoS where potentially you're 3 or 4 divisons away from a Premier spot, playing clubs in Ayrshire or Glasgow that mean absolutely nothing to your supporters.

Secondly regarding the Pyramid and this is the important bit, we know Ayrshire and Glasgow are west, we know the Lothians and Edinburgh are east, why should we create what would amount to a confused mess in West Lothian, a mixing bowl of clubs in different regions - what benefit does any club or league gain from doing that? 

I think we know what lies behind some of these clubs wanting to go west, and sadly it has little to do with "best way forward", that much has been made clear.

 

I understand that the boundary you mentioned held significance within Junior football but does not apply within the pyramid, I believe that the clubs thinking of applying to the pyramid meet the criteria for both EoS & WoS. It's been years since the West Lothian sides played against teams that would have been considered some of our 'traditional rivals', clubs adapt and find ways of making their situation work for them.

Personally I don't believe that teams from West Lothian playing in different leagues would cause any 'real world' issues.

You are right that these considerations (amongst many others) will need to be taken into account by clubs when make their decision, I truly hope that they are and each club makes a decision it is the right one for them (personally I don't know what clubs intend applying to what league but believe they should be allowed to apply to the league that best matches their vision for the club).

 

[Burnieman]

3 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

I understand that the boundary you mentioned held significance within Junior football but does not apply within the pyramid, I believe that the clubs thinking of applying to the pyramid meet the criteria for both EoS & WoS. It's been years since the West Lothian sides played against teams that would have been considered some of our 'traditional rivals', clubs adapt and find ways of making their situation work for them.

Personally I don't believe that teams from West Lothian playing in different leagues would cause any 'real world' issues.

You are right that these considerations (amongst many others) will need to be taken into account by clubs when make their decision, I truly hope that they are and each club makes a decision it is the right one for them (personally I don't know what clubs intend applying to what league but believe they should be allowed to apply to the league that best matches their vision for the club).

 

So having West Lothian a mix of different regions would not create "real world" issues, that's disingenuous.  Where would you draw the line, maybe an Edinburgh club would fancy a stab at the WoS, maybe a Lanarkshire club would like a try at the EoS in return, see where this is going?

What would your answer be if and when the WoS ask each club what their reasons are for applying to the WoS over the EoS, given that the EoS already has three West Lothian clubs as members, and why should they let them join. What would they say are the benefits to the WoS?

[Quotation Marks]

35 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Not too sure what the local paper situation is in West Lothian. Biggest one I could see is the West Lothian Courier. 

Just as an example that maybe doesn't get a mention. Doesn't it make sense for that paper to have a fairly specialist subject covering Livingston, any promoted teams and the EoSFL. Rather than split that focus at the regional level with WoS /EoS? 

It's a huge decision for all the Clubs and I'm sure they will consider all aspects.

Who knows the Courier might give this issue some coverage, it would fill a few column inches at a time when there is not much happening non league footie wise.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

19 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

I understand that the boundary you mentioned held significance within Junior football but does not apply within the pyramid, I believe that the clubs thinking of applying to the pyramid meet the criteria for both EoS & WoS. It's been years since the West Lothian sides played against teams that would have been considered some of our 'traditional rivals', clubs adapt and find ways of making their situation work for them.

Personally I don't believe that teams from West Lothian playing in different leagues would cause any 'real world' issues.

You are right that these considerations (amongst many others) will need to be taken into account by clubs when make their decision, I truly hope that they are and each club makes a decision it is the right one for them (personally I don't know what clubs intend applying to what league but believe they should be allowed to apply to the league that best matches their vision for the club).

 

I agree in a lot of Burnieman's post above, some I don't but  'regarding local rivals' bit is two fold and I agree to a certain extent with 'Quotation Marks'
The comment "then you'll appreciate that the Lanarkshire/Lothians boundary has been there for over a century and is understood by everyone, some of your tradition rivals (which is a big part of what football is all about) play in the EoS already."   but historical rivals and junior history is just that, history and is now a defunct league/association and there's a new league/association in its place with teams in the WOSFL that can be classed as local rivals too.

The comment about Lanarkshire /Lothian boundary is just that, council boundaries and is only used for football as guide.
Dunipace for example are in the EOS they were told they can choose to be in the EOSFL or the WOSFL.

The only way this debate would cease is that the SFA came out with definitive areas of boundaries so they have not, as far as I'm aware so these teams whom are in the middle as I've stated before, due to longitude are able to play in either the WOSFL or the EOSFL. SO at the moment, there is no official boundaries(? is this true) so as stated before these teams do have  aright to apply to both associations 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Whitburn Vale]

A fook it,we'll just run a line down from the A71 at Addiewell,down the B792 to junction 4 on the M8,then from there down the A801 to the boundary with Falkirk.

That means Armadale,Whitburn,Stoneyburn,Fauldhouse and Harthill can go West while the rest go East....there that's that sorted ...........

[Quotation Marks]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

So having West Lothian a mix of different regions would not create "real world" issues, that's disingenuous.  Where would you draw the line, maybe an Edinburgh club would fancy a stab at the WoS, maybe a Lanarkshire club would like a try at the EoS in return, see where this is going?

What would your answer be if and when the WoS ask each club what their reasons are for applying to the WoS over the EoS, given that the EoS already has three West Lothian clubs as members, and why should they let them join. What would they say are the benefits to the WoS?

I'd imagine starting again from the bottom is enough to deter clubs from moving region.

Meeting the criteria would be a plus, it's also quite possible that the majority of a West Lothian clubs players could reside Lanarkshire / Glasgow, so financial considerations may come into the clubs thinking.

[Burnieman]

I'd imagine starting again from the bottom is enough to deter clubs from moving region.
Meeting the criteria would be a plus, it's also quite possible that the majority of a West Lothian clubs players could reside Lanarkshire / Glasgow, so financial considerations may come into the clubs thinking.

You've not really answered the points I raised. What would Bathgate say to the WoS when asked why they want to join when some of their local rivals already play in the EoS, and WL is considered an east area. What benefits would they bring to the league to persuade them to encroach into EoS areas? How do WL clubs sell themselves to the WoS?

Also, starting at the bottom league if you're already in the bottom league isn't a deterrent, so Craigroyston for WoS? Forth Wanderers or Royal Albert for EoS?

[Whitburn Vale]

Would be crazy for Livi United and Pumphy to be in the WoSFL when they're a good bit further east than Blackburn !!!

Teams from Ayrshire,Glasgow and Lanarkshire would be driving past Blackburn and their ground,just to get to both of the above venues 

[Burnieman]

I agree in a lot of Burnieman's post above, some I don't but  'regarding local rivals' bit is two fold and I agree to a certain extent with 'Quotation Marks'
The comment "then you'll appreciate that the Lanarkshire/Lothians boundary has been there for over a century and is understood by everyone, some of your tradition rivals (which is a big part of what football is all about) play in the EoS already."   but historical rivals and junior history is just that, history and is now a defunct league/association and there's a new league/association in its place with teams in the WOSFL that can be classed as local rivals too.
The comment about Lanarkshire /Lothian boundary is just that, council boundaries and is only used for football as guide.
Dunipace for example are in the EOS they were told they can choose to be in the EOSFL or the WOSFL.

The only way this debate would cease is that the SFA came out with definitive areas of boundaries so they have not, as far as I'm aware so these teams whom are in the middle as I've stated before, due to longitude are able to play in either the WOSFL or the EOSFL. SO at the moment, there is no official boundaries(? is this true) so as stated before these teams do have  aright to apply to both associations 

To clarify and resolve the matter, the EoS advise the WoS that they consider the Lothians their area of operation and they'd like the boundary between the regions to remain consistent from Junior football, where 99% of WoS clubs came from. However, they understand Harthill's position despite the ground being in the Lothians.

I'm not sure too many member clubs of either league would object to this approach.

Would the new WoS board really adopt a confrontational approach and ignore this request? I'd hope not.

[Burnieman]

Would be crazy for Livi United and Pumphy to be in the WoSFL when they're a good bit further east than Blackburn !!!
Teams from Ayrshire,Glasgow and Lanarkshire would be driving past Blackburn and their ground,just to get to both of the above venues [emoji848]

This boundary is getting squigglier (is that a word?) [emoji23]

[Whitburn Vale]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

This boundary is getting squigglier (is that a word?)

Aye burnie, it could be a case of the western west lothian clubs liking Whitburn Vale's new boundary 

[Quotation Marks]

5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You've not really answered the points I raised. What would Bathgate say to the WoS when asked why they want to join when some of their local rivals already play in the EoS, and WL is considered an east area. What benefits would they bring to the league to persuade them to encroach into EoS areas? How do WL clubs sell themselves to the WoS?

Also, starting at the bottom league if you're already in the bottom league isn't a deterrent, so Craigroyston for WoS? Forth Wanderers or Royal Albert for EoS?

So the the decisions by a few West Lothian clubs 3 / 4 years ago should impact on a greater number of West Lothian making decisions regarding their future now?

If West Lothian is an east area in the pyramid I'm sure a map showing the boundary exists. 

I'm sure well run clubs that meet criteria would be attractive to any region ( from what you're saying the EoS seem to want them, why wouldn't the WoS?)

Entirely a decision for Craigroyston, Forth & Royal Albert.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, Quotation Marks said:

It's a huge decision for all the Clubs and I'm sure they will consider all aspects.

Who knows the Courier might give this issue some coverage, it would fill a few column inches at a time when there is not much happening non league footie wise.

It's not so much about the run up. It's about the week to week during a season. More clubs from West Lothian sharing the same pathway would mean more games against each other in the leagues and cups. Those are times that the local paper would be more interested in giving things coverage as it would involve two towns/villages so there's a vested interest.

That can help lead to sponsors for the clubs and league. As I don't know about round that way but local businesses that tend to advertise in the local paper round here can often be found sponsoring the local team.

[FairWeatherFan]

On a bit of a side note with the impact of COVID and the creation of the WoSFL. It's looking like the amateur game in the West/Central Scotland might be in for a bit of change. Hoping to see some Argyll & Bute teams enter the pyramid.

[Stag Nation]

31 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The only way this debate would cease is that the SFA came out with definitive areas of boundaries so they have not, as far as I'm aware so these teams whom are in the middle as I've stated before, due to longitude are able to play in either the WOSFL or the EOSFL. SO at the moment, there is no official boundaries(? is this true) so as stated before these teams do have  aright to apply to both associations 

It is NOT the only way. The EoS and WoS could easily agree a boundary and have it ratified by their members, without any reference to the SFA.

[Whitburn Vale]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

On a bit of a side note with the impact of COVID and the creation of the WoSFL. It's looking like the amateur game in the West/Central Scotland might be in for a bit of change. Hoping to see some Argyll & Bute teams enter the pyramid.

Would love to see Oban Saints or Rothsay Brandane in the WoS..