New clubs in the West of Scotland

[jimbaxters]

45 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

At a rough guess, less than 5% of the local community ever go to games. Maybe another 5% show some interest. The other 90% wouldn't care if the club disappeared.

What a depressing view that is. 

[Stag Nation]

22 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

What a depressing view that is. 

But realistic. If you want a relentlessly upbeat outlook regardless of the facts, call Boris Johnson.

[Marten]

This piece gives the same old suggestion, that the pyramid is only really for clubs who want to move up to higher leagues. That's simply not what it's about, it's about teams finding their level. The likes of Dundee will aim to get to the Premiership, the likes of Brechin City and Albion Rovers will want to stay in the SPFL, other clubs will want to reach the SPFL and again other clubs are just happy to play their football at tier 8 or lower. All of that is absolutely fine. By having all in the same system, clubs with ambition can invest in moving up and clubs who aren't bothered with that can just keep playing their football at their level.

Eyemouth wouldn't have returned to the EOS with the ambition of reaching the LL. They will be quite happy to play at tier 8 when conferences are over and not get regular hidings like they did when they were at tier 6. That could encourage other (Borders) amateur clubs to join tier 8 (or maybe even tier 9 if EOS expand more, depending on whether or not they opt for regionalisation). Similar things can ultimately happen for the west, the lowest tier can be a good step up for amateur clubs who might not expect to get any higher and will be happy to play that level of football.

[Hillonearth]

3 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

What a depressing view that is. 

It applies more to the city clubs I reckon - and 5% is a more than optimistic estimate. Even Pollok who are far and away consistently the best-supported side at our level average 600-odd despite having the entire South Side to themselves which must hold not far short of 100,000 people. St Roch's had been pulling in impressive numbers too of late, but at least a proportion of those numbers will be contingent on another side not having a game that day.

When that guy was compiling attendance figures last season, it came as a slight shock to find out my lot were marginally the best-supported in our old division with average crowds from memory of about 140. Bear in mind we've essentially got the whole West End as a catchment area, so that's hardly impressive, although it seems to have been building albeit slowly.

It's obviously different in the case of village and small town teams who seem to be able to mobilise good proportions of the local population - whether that's down to the less transient nature of small town life which encourages people to put down roots and support local institutions or the fact that a city has proportionately many more entertainment options on people's doorsteps competing for their attention I don't know.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

Whether you agree with him or not, the lad loves his club and it seems he puts in a shift regularly on their behalf. He's entitled to his opinion.

As is everyone else and you and me entitled to their opinion.  By definition he is the type that is blinkered, static, no vision and only interested in the past and thinking of his own being in charge of the team to the detriment of the club, as are quite a few people in various teams.

I'm trying to be objective here but really his whole piece is an embarrassment. 

Oh and I should have added jimbaxters, yes I totally agree with your comments

Edited February 25, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

But on the flip side a potential pool of votes for said clubs if the remaining SJFA members stick together in a make junior fitba great again sort of way. What gets posted on P&B by a small self-selecting group of posters often tends to be out of tune with how votes tend to wind up going hence why the pyramid debate dragged on and on...

 The West Lothian clubs will enter the pyramid one way or the other, so they have a viable plan B. What I think would be most concerning in terms of where the WoS is heading would be if applications from ambitious amateur/youth clubs get rejected because of the delusions of grandeur type sentiments.

With all due respect to Glasgow Perthshire, clubs like Rossvale and Gartcairn are doing a lot to foster participation in the sport at the youth level in their communities and should not have a glass ceiling placed on their ambitions by clubs that are trundling along at this level with a minimal fanbase largely due to having a ground that was built in a very different era.

I agree with you 100% that no club should be  stopped from progressing joining the WOSFL, EOSFL SOS and so on because of clubs voting, thinking of their own self interest, which I understand but if you bringing potential new ambitious teams who intend to progress, i.e. Amateur/Youth or Junior, you can only help but improve the standard of your league.

I will say both Rossvale and Gartcairn don't have much participation in the sport at youth level in their communities as both their academies are separate entities. It's the pathways that they have created that should be commended, this with the academy coaching standard more youths want to join as they see a clear pathway to the First team.  I know academies coaches were working with the Gartcairn first team sessions and I think Rossvale were introducing the same thing.

[Burnieman]

But who can say its fueled by resentment if its one person or two persons in the committee feeling that way. Doesn't mean the rest of the committee are  and over time these committees will change. Are you really thinking of stopping a few clubs to come to the WOSFL because of this kind of thinking when they could possibly enhance the WOSFL, especially, remember once some of the WOSFL get licensed and move out from the WOSFL
I know Factually, Harthill want in the WOSFL due to the standard of the WOSFL and their close proximity to quite a few teams in the WOSFL, nothing to do with resentment of the EOSFL clubs

They should stop them as they don't belong in the WoS (potentially Harthill excepted).

[Hillonearth]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

They should stop them as they don't belong in the WoS (potentially Harthill excepted).

There's definitely a case to be made purely due to geography for Harthill just as there was for Luncarty in the east. That's it though.

The others are prima facie potential EOS teams, and should be pointed in that direction for pyramid entry no matter how much those in charge of them are squirming at the prospect of having to meet up with people from other clubs they've had a go at previously, and to all intents and purposes have to admit they've made a c**t of it.

[LongTimeLurker]

On 25/02/2021 at 10:27, jimbaxters said:

What a depressing view that is. 

But accurate given Auchinleck is an outlier rather than the norm in interest terms. Look at Ashfield. Vaguely remember reading something online about them having something outlandish sounding in present day terms like 96 coach loads of fans for a junior cup game in Bo'ness not long after WWII. Would you even be able to find 96 people that would call themselves an Ashfield fan now? Clubs like that have a ground that was built in an era when they must have been hugely relevant to their local coimmunity, but in 2021 how many people really care in their local catchment?

A club like BSC Glasgow can justifiably be criticised for playing in Alloa, but nobody can sensibly question whether they are relevant to large numbers of people in their local community through what they are doing at the youth level. Having clubs like that enter the league system is about reflecting what's happening in the 2020s rather being a fossilised relic of what was happening back in the 1920s.

{Edit: having checked the SFHA records that have been posted elsewhere the game described above almost certainly involved Irvine Meadow rather than Ashfield}

Edited April 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Bestsinceslicebread]

9 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

But who can say its fueled by resentment if its one person or two persons in the committee feeling that way. Doesn't mean the rest of the committee are  and over time these committees will change. Are you really thinking of stopping a few clubs to come to the WOSFL because of this kind of thinking when they could possibly enhance the WOSFL, especially, remember once some of the WOSFL get licensed and move out from the WOSFL
I know Factually, Harthill want in the WOSFL due to the standard of the WOSFL and their close proximity to quite a few teams in the WOSFL, nothing to do with resentment of the EOSFL clubs

Burnieman said
"They should stop them as they don't belong in the WoS (potentially Harthill excepted)."

 

Bestsinceslicebread Says
 

But why, because of history ?

When you look at the map, we agree that Harthill can join but if you have Forth Wanderers in the WOSFL with their location then definitely Fauldhouse also should be allowed in and Armadale because both are closer to the WOSFL in Longitude than Forth Wanderers, and Whitburn are nearly on the same line and Bathgate are just off it. So to me these teams should have a choice are there is no structured boundaries, everyone is in reality going by history. But that history is in the junior which should not be taken into account from the new association that being the WOSFL

I'm playing devils advocate here and trying to be as objective as I can

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Burnieman said
"They should stop them as they don't belong in the WoS (potentially Harthill excepted)."

 

Bestsinceslicebread Says
 

But why, because of history ?

When you look at the map, we agree that Harthill can join but if you have Forth Wanderers in the WOSFL with their location then definitely Fauldhouse also should be allowed in and Armadale because both are closer to the WOSFL in Longitude than Forth Wanderers, and Whitburn are nearly on the same line and Bathgate are just off it. So to me these teams should have a choice are there is no structured boundaries, everyone is in reality going by history. But that history is in the junior which should not be taken into account from the new association that being the WOSFL

I'm playing devils advocate here and trying to be as objective as I can

There's no objectivity needed.

West Lothian / Lothians are East of Scotland territory.  Forget distances, the Lanarkshire/Lothians border has been the accepted cut off point for Junior league areas since football began, and there is absolutely no reason why that should change.  If it is allowed, then West Lothian becomes a mess of clubs from different regions which helps nobody.

You're forgetting that these clubs aren't considering this move for practical reasons, it's bitterness. Just look at the utterings of the Whitburn guy, and believe me he is not alone in that view.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

But accurate given Auchinleck is an outlier rather than the norm in interest terms. Look at Ashfield. Vaguely remember reading something online about them having something outlandish sounding in present day terms like 96 coach loads of fans for a junior cup game in Bo'ness not long after WWII. Would you even be able to find 96 people that would call themselves an Ashfield fan now? Clubs like that have a ground that was built in an era when they must have been hugely relevant to their local coimmunity, but in 2021 how many people really care in their local catchment?

A club like BSC Glasgow can justifiably be criticised for playing in Alloa, but nobody can sensibly question whether they are relevant to large numbers of people in their local community through what they are doing at the youth level. Having clubs like that enter the league system is about reflecting what's happening in the 2020s rather being a fossilised relic of what was happening back in the 1920s.

Yes 100%, easily but these people don't go to games as they follow bigger senior clubs or have other things to do in their life that they deem more important than going to watch Ashfield.

You have got to ask the question, say the WOSFL clubs, what do these clubs do to attract fans, do they just play games, advertise on twitter n face book and hope some turn up or are they proactive and getting people out there with advertising, pamphlets,  message boards in Asda or even having a day before covid in Asda, Morrisions, tesco, helping with groceries etc.. or doing other things,  I'm not to sure but know there are inventive ways to be proactive and it does work

[Burnieman]

11 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

The others are prima facie potential EOS teams, and should be pointed in that direction for pyramid entry no matter how much those in charge of them are squirming at the prospect of having to meet up with people from other clubs they've had a go at previously, and to all intents and purposes have to admit they've made a c**t of it.

Correct.   The EoS will welcome them in and treat them as any other member, there is no bitterness from that side at all, nobody probably cares too much about what has happened over the last 3 years.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

There's no objectivity needed.

West Lothian / Lothians are East of Scotland territory.  Forget distances, the Lanarkshire/Lothians border has been the accepted cut off point for Junior league areas since football began, and there is absolutely no reason why that should change.  If it is allowed, then West Lothian becomes a mess of clubs from different regions which helps nobody.

You're forgetting that these clubs aren't considering this move for practical reasons, it's bitterness. Just look at the utterings of the Whitburn guy, and believe me he is not alone in that view.

I agree with that the council boundaries but is that the rules that the football is governed by council boundaries as there should be boundaries in place for football specific throughout Scotland.
The WOSFL is embryonic and will change and hopefully grow so we have to adapt and go with the times. The WOSFL association is new, brand new and can adapt and change the way they see fit and by that I mean bringing these clubs in, if they fit a tight criteria as there is no official boundaries
But who says all these clubs have that view, just because a couple of committee men have that view doesn't mean everyone else has, there might be a committee person in each of these teams but there are the exact same people in teams in the WOSFL that have this type of attitude about past junior histories, should those clubs be punished because of a few inept people.  I remember Factually that West Calder committee all wanted to stay in the juniors, one of the staunchest there was as they didn't want change but have their attitude changed now in the past couple of years since I chatted with the committee people, I haven't a clue but I definitely think they will have mellowed if anything.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnieman]

Just now, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I agree with that the council boundaries but is that the rules that the football is governed by as there should be boundaries in place for football specific throughout Scotland.
The WOSFL is embryonic and will change and hopefully grow so we have to adapt and go with the times. The WOSFL association is new, brand new and can adapt and change the way they see fit and by that I mean bringing these clubs in, if they fit a tight criteria as there is no official boundaries
But who says all these clubs have that view, just because a couple of committee men have that view doesn't mean everyone else has, there might be a committee person in each of these teams but there are the exact same people in teams in the WOSFL that have this type of attitude about past junior histories, should those clubs be punished because of a few inept people.  I remember Factually that West Calder committee all wanted to stay in the juniors, one of the staunchest there was as they didn't want change but have their attitude changed now in the past couple of years since I chatted with the committee people, I haven't a clue but I definitely think they will have mellowed if anything.

It's a commonly held view amongst those clubs who remained "staunch" to the Juniors in West Lothian.  Some however have already applied to the EoS, some haven't done anything yet, and then there's those who have applied to the WoS.   That fact alone - some clubs going one way and some the other despite being near neighbours - shows that West Lothian needs to be confirmed as EoS to stop is becoming a ridiculous situation which just harms the pyramid.

[Hillonearth]

26 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I agree with that the council boundaries but is that the rules that the football is governed by as there should be boundaries in place for football specific throughout Scotland.
The WOSFL is embryonic and will change and hopefully grow so we have to adapt and go with the times. The WOSFL association is new, brand new and can adapt and change the way they see fit and by that I mean bringing these clubs in, if they fit a tight criteria as there is no official boundaries
But who says all these clubs have that view, just because a couple of committee men have that view doesn't mean everyone else has, there might be a committee person in each of these teams but there are the exact same people in teams in the WOSFL that have this type of attitude about past junior histories, should those clubs be punished because of a few inept people.  I remember Factually that West Calder committee all wanted to stay in the juniors, one of the staunchest there was as they didn't want change but have their attitude changed now in the past couple of years since I chatted with the committee people, I haven't a clue but I definitely think they will have mellowed if anything.

I've no doubt there are at least some more progressive voices on some of the committees involved, however the fact that nothing has happened until their situation has become completely untenable would suggest that they're certainly not in a majority.

It's also a salient point that I don't think has been raised thus far that for all the bleating about history and tradition, they seem more than willing to rip up the history and tradition playbook and pivot to another area of the country where they have neither rather than admit they initially got things badly wrong and were caught on the wrong side of history...not for the first time in recent years in some cases.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Hillonearth

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

I've no doubt there are at least some more progressive voices on some of the committees involved, however the fact that nothing has happened until their situation has become completely untenable would suggest that they're certainly not in a majority.

It's also a salient point that I don't think has been raised thus far that for all the bleating about history and tradition, they seem more than willing to rip up the history and tradition playbook and pivot to another area of the country where they have neither rather than admit they initially got things badly wrong and were caught on the wrong side of history...not for the first time in recent years in some cases.

Regarding your first point, yes 100%.  How many of us have made a decision and later on realized we should have done the opposite, its common nature.  I know of plenty of teams where the chairman rules or cliques and the committee are just sheep and go with what he/she or they say.   I do think the council boundaries are what they are council boundaries and whoever it goes to or in authority should make up complete baseline boundaries for all of football in Scotland and right now, each of the teams, Harthill, Armadale, Fauldhouse, Bathgate, Whitburn etc... should canvas the fans and find out their thoughts where they would like to go and even if they apply and don't get it, its goo to get the fans view

I find nothing wrong with a team moving from one association to another if they are allowed to by fitting in with the strict criteria and location. It happens in Youth and amateur and I also mean by that, teams that have traditional and historically stayed in certain associations. As long as the clubs remember their past, their heritage for new members to read about then I think that's fine

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Yes 100%, easily but these people don't go to games as they follow bigger senior clubs or have other things to do in their life that they deem more important than going to watch Ashfield.

You have got to ask the question, say the WOSFL clubs, what do these clubs do to attract fans, do they just play games, advertise on twitter n face book and hope some turn up or are they proactive and getting people out there with advertising, pamphlets,  message boards in Asda or even having a day before covid in Asda, Morrisions, tesco, helping with groceries etc.. or doing other things,  I'm not to sure but know there are inventive ways to be proactive and it does work

In terms of getting the name out there, more stunt-orientated thinking outside the box is almost always more effective than some of the things every team has already tried and failed with...the giving tickets to local schools thing is invariably a damp squib although every committee has at one point considered it a blue-sky idea, and the packing bags in supermarkets only really works with youth teams' fundraising...adult players couldn't be expected to take time off work to undertake that.

As a pertinent example? We were recently contacted by a girl from Leeds called Mary Hill (!) who recently found out there was a district in Glasgow called just that. Once this is all over, she's organising a gathering of similarly-named people she's found online over the course of the pandemic to meet up and go to a game at Lochburn and go for a night in the club. It's already got us namechecked in the Sun, Glasgow Live and Radio Clyde, and I believe she's also being interviewed for Amanda Holden's radio show today. I understand there's even a possibility of TV coverage when it eventually happens.

Admittedly it's gimmicky as f**k and will no doubt rub some traditionalists up the wrong way, but it'll give us more word of mouth exposure than a year's worth of sheets of A4 blu-tacked up in the corners of local pubs.

[Burnieman]

FWF pulled this one out of the archive which shows the SFA Boards recognition that the EoS covers Lothians.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

FWF pulled this one out of the archive which shows the SFA Boards recognition that the EoS covers Lothians.

That's from an update from the EoS Committee to the membership. So the Board being referenced would be the EoSFL not the SFA. It does though show that the EoSFL consider the Lothians part of its territory which got it into conflict with introducing the East Region into the pyramid.