New clubs in the West of Scotland

[Arthurlie1981]

Kello Rovers are what probably complicated matters on defining everything strictly by local authority areas. Kirkconnel is significantly into Dumfries and Galloway, which is generally viewed as SoS territory. They would also have had to deal with the anomalies of Tweedmouth being on the wrong side of the Tweed in EoS terms and Caledonian Braves Reserves playing at Strathclyde Park in SoS terms. By the sounds of what has been posted on the EoS subforum Harthill have actually been in contact with a WoS official, so if they are still pursuing it there probably is no obstacle in terms of constitutions or agreements between leagues.

But that’s a red herring as these were preexisting situations. Kello played in the west juniors as there was no junior league in D&G. Caley Braves joined the senior leagues at a time when there was no west league and were playing out of Annan at the time. As I said above if any of the current Lowland League clubs that are West of Scotland based they should be relegated to that league.

There is nothing to stop it as by the looks of things the leagues haven’t had the sense to get together and amend their constitutions to clearly define borders that are within the lowland league catchment areas. I can see the argument for Harthill and that a exception should be made for them but I just think it opens up a whole can of worms.

I find it quite ridiculous that none of the leagues thought of this when the WOS got up and running. I mean the SoS were actively seeking teams to join from the “traditional” west catchment area. We are either doing this right or we are just allowing a free for all that makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

But that’s a red herring as these were preexisting situations. Kello played in the west juniors as there was no junior league in D&G. Caley Braves joined the senior leagues at a time when there was no west league and were playing out of Annan at the time. As I said above if any of the current Lowland League clubs that are West of Scotland based they should be relegated to that league.

There is nothing to stop it as by the looks of things the leagues haven’t had the sense to get together and amend their constitutions to clearly define borders that are within the lowland league catchment areas. I can see the argument for Harthill and that a exception should be made for them but I just think it opens up a whole can of worms.

I find it quite ridiculous that none of the leagues thought of this when the WOS got up and running. I mean the SoS were actively seeking teams to join from the “traditional” west catchment area. We are either doing this right or we are just allowing a free for all that makes a mockery of the whole thing.

 

Edusport academy were accepted into the South while playing in Hamilton. They only moved to Annan to secure a licence a season later, while working on a return North.  

As for the South recruiting clubs from the West, did they get any? No. Strange. I mean tier 6 football and all that jumping queues. It's almost as if there are other factors at play that work as natural boundaries. 

How'd you feel about Montrose Roselea moving within the Junior pyramid since you're happy swatting away all the other examples of clubs breaking boundaries? 

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

... I mean the SoS were actively seeking teams to join from the “traditional” west catchment area. We are either doing this right or we are just allowing a free for all that makes a mockery of the whole thing.

The SFA told Auchinleck Talbot at one point that they had to join the SoS if they wanted to get licensed. The SoS was being officially viewed as the west tier 6 league for a few years in the McRae/Regan era. East Kilbride joined the SoS before getting into the LL without ever playing a game in it and Caledonian Braves and Bonnyton got accepted later. A cynic might conclude that if Kelty hadn't upset the apple cart there were plenty of influential people in the Scottish game who would have been quite happy to see Junior football marginalised on an ongoing basis and permanently on the outside looking in where the pyramid is concerned.

Personally think the sensible destination for West Lothian east region clubs (other than Harthill) is clearly the EoS, but don't see it as the end of civilisation as we have known it if the way the pyramid gets completed as soon as possible and with a minimum of fuss is by having them go west if WoS clubs are willing to take a few of them so the line winds up a few miles further east around Bathgate and Blackburn instead. 

Do the EoS really want the Armadale twitter guy at their AGMs in the years ahead? Might be better for both parties to avoid that scenario.

Edited February 2, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnieman]

I'm sure the EoS members don't really care about who is at an AGM. The vast majority will have attended AGM's with all WL clubs in the past, none of them hold any sort of grudge about past events as far as I am aware, why would they.

The leagues need to avoid making West Lothian a bit of a dugs dinner with clubs at the same level of the pyramid in different regions.

It's a no brainer really.

[Sergeant Wilson]

I've seen this kind of thing before.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

8 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Yes, they are technically really a Greenrigg club as that's what the West Lothian part of Harthill is called. Their ground is on the opposite side of the main street from Greenrigg right next to where Harthill proper starts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenrigg

Most of Harthill is in Lanarkshire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harthill,_Scotland

Given Clydebank were trying to get into the EoS at one point and even received provisional membership, Clydebank fans are maybe not the best people to be championing where a fixed boundary should be on this but can understand why the Armadale twitter guy would still be viewed negatively.

There was no WOSL and Clydebanks location meant going east was the only option. So no its nothing even remotely similar. 

[Arthurlie1981]

Edusport academy were accepted into the South while playing in Hamilton. They only moved to Annan to secure a licence a season later, while working on a return North.  
As for the South recruiting clubs from the West, did they get any? No. Strange. I mean tier 6 football and all that jumping queues. It's almost as if there are other factors at play that work as natural boundaries. 
How'd you feel about Montrose Roselea moving within the Junior pyramid since you're happy swatting away all the other examples of clubs breaking boundaries? 

But again there were no west league for Edu Sport to go into so they had a choice, I’m not sure why your flogging that dead horse tbh.

You make a fair point on the fact no clubs decided to join the south coming from the west area but my point is we should remove it as a point of debate. If you clearly define boundaries then there is no debate that’s my point. To have no clearly defined boundaries in regional leagues is a nonsense.

On Montrose Roselea, tbh I didn’t care, it didn’t impact on my club (as this might) but if I had thought about it back then I would have felt the same IF there were clearly defined boundaries.

Let me make it clear, I have no issue if these clubs wish to apply as there is nothing in the rules to stop them, what I do think is that it is wrong and it would seem to me that they are taking advantage to move be in a higher tier than they would be in the east. My biggest gripe is the fact that no one from the 3 leagues has thought, or if they have, done nothing about creating boundaries. Now in fairness we are in year one of the west and maybe I am being too harsh but now is the time to rectify it.

One last point why did Harthill never want to join the west juniors if they feel strongly about playing in the west?

[Arthurlie1981]

The SFA told Auchinleck Talbot at one point that they had to join the SoS if they wanted to get licensed. The SoS was being officially viewed as the west tier 6 league for a few years in the McRae/Regan era. East Kilbride joined the SoS before getting into the LL without ever playing a game in it and Caledonian Braves and Bonnyton got accepted later. A cynic might conclude that if Kelty hadn't upset the apple cart there were plenty of influential people in the Scottish game who would have been quite happy to see Junior football marginalised on an ongoing basis and permanently on the outside looking in where the pyramid is concerned.
Personally think the sensible destination for West Lothian east region clubs (other than Harthill) is clearly the EoS, but don't see it as the end of civilisation as we have known it if the way the pyramid gets completed as soon as possible and with a minimum of fuss is by having them go west if WoS clubs are willing to take a few of them so the line winds up a few miles further east around Bathgate and Blackburn instead. 
Do the EoS really want the Armadale twitter guy at their AGMs in the years ahead? Might be better for both parties to avoid that scenario.

I could be wrong but Auchinleck would have had the similar choice as Clydebank. It wasn’t take it or leave it with the SoS but it was that if they wanted a licence they had to join the pyramid whatever league that was. I know that is what we were told when we had very preliminary discussions with the SFA about the issue.

I agree it’s not the end of the world but you must see it makes a mockery when you have clubs from the same local authority area in different leagues?

[Blackie Gold]

It was the SOSL or nothing at that time. Talbot decided to stay Junior.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

But again there were no west league for Edu Sport to go into so they had a choice, I’m not sure why your flogging that dead horse tbh.

You make a fair point on the fact no clubs decided to join the south coming from the west area but my point is we should remove it as a point of debate. If you clearly define boundaries then there is no debate that’s my point. To have no clearly defined boundaries in regional leagues is a nonsense.

On Montrose Roselea, tbh I didn’t care, it didn’t impact on my club (as this might) but if I had thought about it back then I would have felt the same IF there were clearly defined boundaries.

Let me make it clear, I have no issue if these clubs wish to apply as there is nothing in the rules to stop them, what I do think is that it is wrong and it would seem to me that they are taking advantage to move be in a higher tier than they would be in the east. My biggest gripe is the fact that no one from the 3 leagues has thought, or if they have, done nothing about creating boundaries. Now in fairness we are in year one of the west and maybe I am being too harsh but now is the time to rectify it.

One last point why did Harthill never want to join the west juniors if they feel strongly about playing in the west?

I pointed out the bit about Edusport Academy simply as a correction. They didn't start playing at Annan, but moved there after a season of playing in Hamilton.

Say instead of being a membership organisation with no definitive boundaries where suitable applications that meet their criteria go to a membership vote.

Instead of that, the WoSFL becomes the only entry point to the SFA pyramid and licencing for a specific area. Does the WoSFL still have the right to turn down applicants that meet the entry criteria?

East Juniors doesn't equal EoSFL. West Juniors doesn't equal WoSFL. The East Juniors they joined basically stayed the same for their experience from 1992-2013. Then the South Division started to include Fife teams they would then spend two years doing that, two years in abeyance. Coming back in 2017-18 maybe they would have reassessed their surroundings but the West was going region wide the following year and the East Region collapsed.

 

 

[Arthurlie1981]

It was the SOSL or nothing at that time. Talbot decided to stay Junior.

Thanks for clarifying.

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, Burnieman said:

I'm sure the EoS members don't really care about who is at an AGM...

I was thinking more of the blazers. The EoS is approaching a point where reluctant east region defectors will be solidly in the majority rather than traditional EoS clubs and those that were genuinely gung ho about joining them. Throw the Whitburn and Armadale area into the mix and maybe you start getting motions to affiliate with the SJFA, enter the SJC rather than the SCC and attempts to replace officeholders from the pre-Kelty era? 

[LongTimeLurker]

13 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

There was no WOSL and Clydebanks location meant going east was the only option. So no its nothing even remotely similar. 

Might be worth taking a trip down memory lane to look at what was being posted at the time. My recollection is that the conventional wisdom on here was that west region clubs (minus Dunipace) were in SoS territory in pyramid terms and would have to apply to the SoS to get licensed as Auchinleck Talbot had been told. Around the same time Kelty were told by the SFA that they had to join the EoS to get licensed with the difference being they actually went ahead with it unlike Talbot where the SoS was concerned. Can remember posting about how Clydebank's senior grade participation in the Stirlingshire Cup could maybe be used to argue for EoS entry instead in a nothing ventured nothing gained sort of way, when Clydebank posters stated that SoS entry was a complete non-starter for them.

The EoS was still struggling big time for numbers at the time, so may have been more receptive to a membership application from the west than they otherwise would have been and have subsequently been. If you go back through old posts you will find that at one point Burnieman was arguing vociferously on here for the remaining EoS members to join the east region like Easthouses and Craigroyston did rather than vice versa. Before the Kelty Hearts defection there was very little appetite amongst either east or west region junior clubs for joining either the EoS or the SoS and that looked like it could be an insurmountable obstacle to further progress in pyramid terms, especially if Tom Johnston was still going to be rattling on about the Holy Grail and 100k toilet blocks.

Edited February 3, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

33 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The EoS was still struggling big time for numbers at the time, so may have been more receptive to a membership application from the west than they otherwise would have been and have subsequently been.

By the time Clydebank were looking into entering the pyramid it was already known that Dalkeith Thistle were applying to the EoSFL for 2018-19. With Hawick certain to be relegated the EoSFL knew they'd be at least 14 clubs. Plus internally they knew there were other clubs sniffing around following Kelty's lead.

It was really 2016-17 when the EoSFL was at its lowest ebb and probably would have taken near enough anyone. They lose another couple of teams to the LL, Craigroyston go to the Juniors and all they were able to add was Tweedmouth.

When Duns fold early on it left them at 11 teams. At least they knew that was their bottom. As the LL had finally maxed out at 16 clubs andclubs would start to return to the fold.

[Pyramidic]

In the near future it is probable that those West Lothian clubs applying to the WOSFL will be subject to a “zoom interview”. I provide below some likely questions and some possible “model answers”.
 

Q1. Why do you want to join the WOSFL rather than the EOSFL?

Answer - We have no desire to play with scumbags and traitors and the WOSFL offers the only alternative that is now available to us.

Q2. Why do you want to join a Senior League rather than remain Junior in the ERJFA?

Answer - We do not wish to join a Senior League and if possible would like to remain loyal to our Junior roots. Sadly we are being forced to apply to you as some more scumbags appear to be leaving for the EOSFL and our current league will no longer be viable.

Q3. But could you not remain Junior with the Tayside clubs? Surely that remains an option?

Answer - No - that is simply not possible. We never did like playing the Tayside clubs anyway - crossing the Tay always meant so much unnecessary additional travelling and expense. We much prefer to play local clubs you see.

Q4. In that context surely your historic roots and heritage are set firmly in the East rather than the West? Why make such a drastic change?

Answer - Sadly trust has been irretrievably broken and we have no wish to play those  scumbags and traitors (but perhaps will make the occasional exception if we get a lucrative cup tie draw).

Q5. Do you wish to remain affiliated to the SJFA and compete in the Junior Cup?

Answer - Now you are talking! We yearn for past Junior Cup glories. We like the WOSFL so much because it may be possible to retain our SJFA membership.

Q6. Are you not concerned about the additional travel and congestion that you will face if you participate in a west-based league.

Answer - No we are not at all worried about the additional travelling involved in playing in the WOSFL. It would not involve a crippling trip to Eyemouth or Tweedmouth that we would face in the EOSFL.

Q7. Is your club financially viable, has the requisite facilities and will be a credit to our league?

Answer - Yes. Hopefully TJ will provide us with a good reference.

Q8. Do you intend to stay with us long term?

Answer - Yes. But we might change our minds if the travelling and expense becomes a little too much or we find ourselves playing against more scumbags and traitors.

Q9. Do you have a hidden agenda?

Answer - Not really. But there may be some other clubs already with you that also wish to turn the clock back. Perhaps we can all get together to affiliate the whole league back with the SJFA. Would that not be great? We are so looking forward to joining ........

Health warning. I have obviously written my model answers in jest but beneath them there are some real underlying concerns that need to be hammered out.

[FairWeatherFan]

41 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Are you not concerned about the additional travel and congestion that you will face if you participate in a west-based league.

I did look at that from Harthill's perspective. Comparing them to all the Conference sides in the West & East. With the East also having the remaining South section teams added from the Juniors. As these are the teams that would potentially make up a division they could be in for the next couple of years.

Overall it's basically 30ish miles and 40ish minutes going West or East. So no real cost or benefit on paper. It would be advantage WoSFL if the bottom tiers were to be split in two regionally, as Harthill would lose trips to Ayrshire but still likely have Borders trips in the EoSFL.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 01/02/2021 at 16:18, Dev said:

Would the WoS welcome current Juniors which may have that mentality? Indeed would the EoS welcome clubs with this attitude?

Dev to be honest, there are many people who have that junior mentality and many have the senior mentality.  The junior leagues were fantastic, I feel in my day and a very good standard up till now but all it means as the years go by the people who, mostly older, fans and committee members that have that mentality will move on and young and current people with the times, will take over these clubs and yeah, the junior attitude and the senior attitude will change to one attitude, progression in Scottish Football for their club.

I cant see any of the WOSFL or the EOSFL NOT allowing teams to join, only main reason is that the team do not fit the criteria, I do not think the team should be stopped due to their attitude or mentality, as eventually that mentality will change when new, younger members take over the running of the clubs, same as the WOSFL and EOSFL teams and all others.

I will say however, you will always have these wee things and that's just part and parcel of football.  I'm more interested in teams like Brechin City, their chairman wanted no relegation from SPFL2 and stopped the Lowland or Highland teams progressing but when it comes to a vote to allow teams like Brechin into the Lowland, (when we expect them to be relegated), then they have absolutely no chance, (going to the association that they want, Lowland League), as I can see everyone voting for them to move to the Highland league, which most people state is the area they will be situated, so that's the only way I think a league or association will stop them from joining.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread
More Detail

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Dev to be honest, there are many people who have that junior mentality and many have the senior mentality.  The junior leagues were fantastic, I feel in my day and a very good standard up till now but all it means as the years go by the people who, mostly older, fans and committee members that have that mentality will move on and young and current people with the times, will take over these clubs and yeah, the junior attitude and the senior attitude will change to one attitude, progression in Scottish Football for their club.

I cant see any of the WOSFL or the EOSFL NOT allowing teams to join, only main reason is that the team do not fit the criteria, I do not think the team should be stopped due to their attitude or mentality

I will say however, you will always have these wee things and that's just part and parcel of football.  I'm more interested in teams like Brechin City, their chairman wanted no relegation from SPFL2 and stopped the Lowland or Highland teams progressing but when it comes to a vote to allow teams like Brechin into the Lowland, (when we expect them to be relegated), then they have absolutely no chance as I can see everyone voting for them to move to the Highland league so that's the only way I think a league or association will stop them from joining.

Fair enough!

[Dev]

Mention has been made of the possibility of more new WoS clubs coming up through the SFA Quality Mark System. In 2020/21 there are 518 of these clubs. Some are already part of clubs which are within the SFA Pyramid, including the WoS. In the whole of Scotland there are 48 clubs at the top level (Platinum/Legacy) within the Quality Mark system with another 51 at the second level down (Gold/Community).

Here are  the Platinum/Legacy clubs in the WoS and adjoining areas:

SOUTH WEST REGION
Platinum (Legacy)
Annan Athletic
Blantyre Soccer Academy
Bonnyton Thistle
Claremont AFC
Cumnock Juniors
Glenburn Miners Welfare
Kilbirnie Community FC
Kilwinning Sports Club
Strathaven Dynamo WEST REGION Platinum (Legacy)   Pollok United Soccer Academy  Drumchapel United  Giffnock SC  Glasgow Girls and Boys  Greenock Morton Community Trust  Port Glasgow Juniors CSC  CENTRAL REGION Platinum (Legacy) Cumbernauld Colts Falkirk Foundation FC Gartcairn Youth Academy Holytown Colts Milngavie FC Milton FC Community Motherwell FC Community Trust Rossvale Community Stenhousemuir FC Community Syngenta Juveniles Football Club Tullibody Community FC

Edited February 6, 2021 by Dev
.

[Dev]

Here are the Gold/Community clubs in the WoS and adjoining areas:

 

 

SOUTH WEST REGION

Gold (Community)

Beith Juniors

Caledonian YFC

Dean Thistle

EK FC

Heston Rovers

Milton Rovers YFC

TASS Thistle  WEST REGION Community (Gold)   Barrhead YFC  Campbeltown & District Community FC  Erskine YFC  Linwood Rangers YC  North Kelvin Sports Club Palace Park  Thistle Weir Youth Academy    CENTRAL REGION Community (Gold)   Bo'ness United CFC Dumbarton United Dunblane Soccer Club Riverside FC Wasps Community

Edited February 6, 2021 by Dev
.