Livingston v St Mirren League Cup Semi 24/1/21

[kingjoey]

44 minutes ago, Ric said:

Not really sure the point you are making here, or why you have singled out my post in particular. Others have been far harsher than I have.

I said we weren't good enough - which we weren't, that the board have backed him - which they have, and that our faltering form has left us in a position in the league where there will be pressure on Goodwin to start winning games again - which it has and there is.

Seems entirely straight forward and something I'd expect most, if not all, St Mirren fans would agree with.

My point was how I started my original post “Fitba fans, eh?” and the fickleness of  fans.  St Mirren have had a great cup run and were  beaten in the semi final by a team that had won 8 and drawn 2 of their last 10 games. St Mirren aren’t on a fantastic run of league form, but it’s not disastrous. Last 9 league games, 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses. You said that the defeat to Livingston “certainly puts a lot of pressure onto Goodwin” and I was using that as an example of the fickleness of Fitba fans. All clubs fans have a section of their support that are fickle, non more so than my own.

[LIVIFOREVER]

 That sums up exactly how a feel about this Livi team, the togetherness, the joy, i don't think i could love Livi any more just now.

[pozbaird]

3 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

 That sums up exactly how a feel about this Livi team, the togetherness, the joy, i don't think i could love Livi any more just now.

Absolutely. Enjoy it. We did in 2013. There are plenty of tough times following a diddy team, so when your team are giving you such a good time (especially under the circumstances we are all living in), then ride the wave. 

[Torfason]

43 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

My point was how I started my original post “Fitba fans, eh?” and the fickleness of  fans.  St Mirren have had a great cup run and were  beaten in the semi final by a team that had won 8 and drawn 2 of their last 10 games. St Mirren aren’t on a fantastic run of league form, but it’s not disastrous. Last 9 league games, 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses. You said that the defeat to Livingston “certainly puts a lot of pressure onto Goodwin” and I was using that as an example of the fickleness of Fitba fans. All clubs fans have a section of their support that are fickle, non more so than my own.

I think the point is not the defeat today but the general form of the side. We got a lucky penalty against Well and a howler against Killie for 2 of those draws. The team are funded to compete but set up to try and not lose, our board have given Jim pretty much everything he has asked for and he is not making the most of those resources.

Losing today falls into the shit happens category but his continued negative approach, tombola tactics, failure to get a settled line up from a decent squad and a tough run of league games coming up is where the pressure will come from.

I realize this is something that you would need to watch us every week to see but it is there. I personally don’t think we should remove him but if he doesn’t improve then it will become more likely and losing a semifinal to Livi will have nothing to do with it. 

[C4mmy31]

3 hours ago, Coventry Saint said:

To be fair to him, the first time he received a pass to his feet anywhere near the box was after Obika came on. 

I personally would have started Obika anyway. Brophy ended up straying further and further to get any of the ball. 

Jim has got some big questions to answer now. Can he find a line-up that actually threatens any sides (and I don't mean just passing it about nicely in the first two thirds)? Can he actually make two up front work? If not, why did we sign Brophy? If Foley and Flynn are as finished at St Mirren as it would appear, then we urgently need an experienced replacement in the middle of midfield because Erhahon need a rest and Cammy isn't quite the answer. 

Yip, we've seen that movie all to many times at Killie....

Goodwin is throwing away good money on him if he thinks Brophy can play upfront on his own, persist and he'll lose interest very quickly and start shooting from wherever he gets the ball and in whatever direction he's facing.

Edited January 24, 2021 by C4mmy31

[Munoz]

31 minutes ago, C4mmy31 said:

Yip, we've seen that movie all to many times at Killie....

Goodwin is throwing away good money on him if he thinks Brophy can play upfront on his own, persist and he'll lose interest very quickly and start shooting from wherever he gets the ball and in whatever direction he's facing.

One of quite a few baffling tactical decisions that Goodwin has got wrong. 

Needs to sort them out pronto, or they will be his downfall. 

[Leewood]

I'm pleased for Livi, and hope they go on and win the final / cup.  An in form team just now, fair play to the new boss.

I would have been pleased for St. Mirren to get to the final as well though,  as they would have deserved to win this cup for knocking the **** out.

[Coventry Saint]

28 minutes ago, C4mmy31 said:

Yip, we've seen that movie all to many times at Killie....

Goodwin is throwing away good money on him if he thinks Brophy can play upfront on his own, persist and he'll lose interest very quickly and start shooting from wherever he gets the ball and in whatever direction he's facing.

I'm far from an expert, but the difference in Brophy when Obika's been next to him Vs when he's not has been so clear. Can't be lost on Goodwin. Just shifts the problem to a different part of the side.

[BIG BEN]

Not a lot in it today. Neither keeper had and real saves to make. The difference was one quality ball into the box. Robinson wanted it more than Mason who the stood and watched as Robinson followed it in.
We had 3 decent chance when Connolly was through and attempted to cross instead of take the last man on
Obike when he went down instead of firing it across goal and
Mac Alistair when he saw the whites of the keepers eyes but refused to shoot.
Only got ourselves to blame.
Good luck to Livi in the final

[andylivi1]

Have to say credit to the St Mirren fans, players and manager who have shown a touch of class today. 

From the St Mirren fans congratulations, the players showing great respect at the end and to Jim Goodwin wishing good luck to both ourselves and St Johnstone in his post match which I’m sure must’ve been gut wrenching,  a real touch of class and I wish you the best of luck for the rest of the season. 

[Torfason]

6 hours ago, Rugster said:

I’m sure that consoles your tears. 

No tears, watching my team lose one nil in the semi final of a National cup is very much a first world problem. Like @pozbaird I remember going through to Forthbank needing a win to stay in the 1st division, that is a tearful situation.

Can you imagine it, that deep feeling of failure by getting relegated to the 3rd tier or Scottish football? 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Torfason

[Lex]

No tears, watching my team lose one nil in the semi final of a National cup is very much a first world problem. Like [mention=11339]pozbaird[/mention] I remember going through to Forthbank needing a win to stay in the 1st division, that is a tearful situation.
Can you imagine it, that deep feeling of failure by getting relegated to the 3rd tier or Scottish football? 

Really puts it in perspective doesn’t it. Teams like Falkirk would love to have our problems [emoji28]

[Durnford]

7 hours ago, Torfason said:

No tears, watching my team lose one nil in the semi final of a National cup is very much a first world problem. Like @pozbaird I remember going through to Forthbank needing a win to stay in the 1st division, that is a tearful situation.

Can you imagine it, that deep feeling of failure by getting relegated to the 3rd tier or Scottish football? 

Try losing 5-2 to Stranraer after taking the lead in the playoff; almost certainly condemning us to dropping out of the championship (or was it called the first division then). Won 4-3 in the second leg after extra time to compound the agony.

Most supporters of their local teams will experience this sort of thing which makes those brief periods of success even sweeter.

[Cptn Hooch]

Have to say credit to the St Mirren fans, players and manager who have shown a touch of class today. 
From the St Mirren fans congratulations, the players showing great respect at the end and to Jim Goodwin wishing good luck to both ourselves and St Johnstone in his post match which I’m sure must’ve been gut wrenching,  a real touch of class and I wish you the best of luck for the rest of the season. 

I hated Goodwin as a player because I saw him as a wannabe hard man kicking folk. As a manager I actually really like him, speaks well, always realistic and complimentary even in defeat. Plus that beard is magnificent

[Durnford]

A difficult game to watch frankly. If we'd continued in the tempo we'd started the game we could have gone in at half time 3-nil up and my nerves would have been a lot better. 

Unfortunately after about quarter of an hour our game got a lot more ragged with unforced errors; missed passes etc. Whether that was down to us becoming over complacent or St Mirren doing a better job at breaking us up; I'm not too sure.

Certainly if St Mirren had been at their best; the could, and should, have beaten us in our second phase performance;  We seemed far to relaxed at times; whether that was over=confidence or tiredness through the fixture congestion I'm not sure but we cant afford to play like that against St Johnstone.

Was surprised, and pleased, when Connally went off; he's started to cause us a few problems in the center and did a reasonably good job of breaking up any counter attack.

St Mirren's defence did surprise me; its not the kind of strong; well drilled outfit that I'd expected from a team with Goodwin in charge. Maybe the occasion got to them?

I was surprised when we brought Longridge on for the final ten or so minutes. It was a bit of a slap in the face to McMillan and Lawson who are a lot more experienced playing with this team and have been around, waiting in the wings, for the last couple of seasons.

Commiserations to the St Mirren team but they do have a number of young guys in the squad so may well get another chance. 

[Ric]

14 hours ago, kingjoey said:

My point was how I started my original post “Fitba fans, eh?” and the fickleness of  fans.  St Mirren have had a great cup run and were  beaten in the semi final by a team that had won 8 and drawn 2 of their last 10 games. St Mirren aren’t on a fantastic run of league form, but it’s not disastrous. Last 9 league games, 3 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses. You said that the defeat to Livingston “certainly puts a lot of pressure onto Goodwin” and I was using that as an example of the fickleness of Fitba fans. All clubs fans have a section of their support that are fickle, non more so than my own.

You are coming to this from a very narrow viewpoint, presumably to make the rather irreverent point about how fickle fans are. So to start with, what I will do is agree with you, fans can be fickle, so the overall assumption is indeed correct for the main part. However in this specific instance you are, as I say, being a bit narrow.

In terms of the LC, we were dreadful in the group, won against a very poor Aberdeen side and had a great game against Rangers. We lost to a Livi side that were by no means particularly good on the day (that is not a dig or sour grapes, their fans will happily admit they've played better), but also to a Livi side we have a 100% record against in the league this season. Talking of the league, Goodwin had a good spell previously but in the last month or two it's been pretty poor fare. Cracks have been papered over by absolute gifts in both the Killie and Motherwell games, where Goodwin still doesn't seem to know his best formation, let alone the players to fill that with, and he has a habit of repeating mistakes - probably the most annoying thing, the old adage of "a sign of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result" springs to mind.

What might surprise you though, is that I back Goodwin, I want him to be a success and I enjoy his managerial style off the park. However, given the points I raised earlier, the pressure will definitely be on Goodwin to start getting results in the league and there simply isn't an argument to counter that, and it's not "fickle fans" somehow being fickle because they lost a single game.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Ric

[kingjoey]

8 minutes ago, Ric said:

You are coming to this from a very narrow viewpoint, presumably to make the rather irreverent point about how fickle fans are. So to start with, what I will do is agree with you, fans can be fickle, so the overall assumption is indeed correct for the main part. However in this specific instance you are, as I say, being a bit narrow.

In terms of the LC, we were dreadful in the group, won against a very poor Aberdeen side and had a great game against Rangers. We lost to a Livi side that were by no means particularly good on the day (that is not a dig or sour grapes, their fans will happily admit they've played better), but also to a Livi side we have a 100% record against in the league this season. Talking of the league, Goodwin had a good spell previously but in the last month or two it's been pretty poor fare. Cracks have been papered over by absolute gifts in both the Killie and Motherwell games, where Goodwin still doesn't seem to know his best formation, let alone the players to fill that with, and he has a habit of repeating mistakes - probably the most annoying thing, the old adage of "a sign of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result" springs to mind.

What might surprise you though, is that I back Goodwin, I want him to be a success and I enjoy his managerial style off the park. However, given the points I raised earlier, the pressure will definitely be on Goodwin to start getting results in the league and there simply isn't an argument to counter that, and it's not "fickle fans" somehow being fickle because they lost a single game.

Fair enough. But my original point still stands because of what you said in your original post.

[Ric]

12 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Fair enough. But my original point still stands because of what you said in your original post.

Not that your point, in the round, doesn't have overall merit, just not in regard to my comments.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Ric

[kingjoey]

4 minutes ago, Ric said:

Not that your point, in the round, doesn't have overall merit, just not in regard to my comments.

I’ll agree to disagree.

[Ric]

3 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

I’ll agree to disagree.

Indeed.

Flip it around, though, and say I was making points about Aberdeen that, overall, you could see where I was coming from but your better knowledge of the situation meant you knew those assumptions weren't quite correct. That's how I see this.