Rangers vs Celtic - January 2nd

[D Angelo Barksdale]

25 minutes ago, G51 said:

The better chance will come when they have to sell Ajer, Edouard and Christie in the next six months and replace them with whatever jobbers Lawwell identifies.

Not sure about this. Whilst their recruitment has been poor this season, if there's one thing that they have done well over the last few years, is a conveyer belt of picking up players cheap and punting on for decent cash. The likes of Ajer and Edouard would probably have been slated to leave this summer anyway. This also assumes that Rangers won't be required to punt any of their good players. I'm not wanting to go down some weird Phil Mac Gholla Bhain tangent, but Rangers have spent a fair whack on players whilst posting decent size losses. The likes of Kamara, Morelos and Barasic were all relatively cheap and should net decent profits.

The next few years of Celtic v Rangers will be about who can play the market better in this regard as much as who replaces Lennon and Gerrard.

The days of the OF being able to hold on to top level players for any longer than a couple of years are long gone.

[DMCs]

51 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

The days of the OF being able to hold on to top level players for any longer than a couple of years are long gone.

There is definitely an argument that could be made that both clubs were too caught up in domestic rivalry that they both missed the opportune moment to cash in on their strikers.

[KnightswoodBear]

1 hour ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Not sure about this. Whilst their recruitment has been poor this season, if there's one thing that they have done well over the last few years, is a conveyer belt of picking up players cheap and punting on for decent cash. The likes of Ajer and Edouard would probably have been slated to leave this summer anyway. This also assumes that Rangers won't be required to punt any of their good players. I'm not wanting to go down some weird Phil Mac Gholla Bhain tangent, but Rangers have spent a fair whack on players whilst posting decent size losses. The likes of Kamara, Morelos and Barasic were all relatively cheap and should net decent profits.

The next few years of Celtic v Rangers will be about who can play the market better in this regard as much as who replaces Lennon and Gerrard.

The days of the OF being able to hold on to top level players for any longer than a couple of years are long gone.

I don't think there's any doubt about that.  I think Rangers haven't made much of a secret that we need to start selling players on for a profit.  I think the ultimate aim is to decrease the need for continued investment and soft loans from board members by selling on a player or two every season for a profit.  

Celtic have had enough hits in this department over the years to show it's a model that would work well for clubs up here. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by KnightswoodBear

[G51]

52 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Not sure about this. Whilst their recruitment has been poor this season, if there's one thing that they have done well over the last few years, is a conveyer belt of picking up players cheap and punting on for decent cash. The likes of Ajer and Edouard would probably have been slated to leave this summer anyway. This also assumes that Rangers won't be required to punt any of their good players. I'm not wanting to go down some weird Phil Mac Gholla Bhain tangent, but Rangers have spent a fair whack on players whilst posting decent size losses. The likes of Kamara, Morelos and Barasic were all relatively cheap and should net decent profits.

The next few years of Celtic v Rangers will be about who can play the market better in this regard as much as who replaces Lennon and Gerrard.

The days of the OF being able to hold on to top level players for any longer than a couple of years are long gone.

Fully agree that Rangers will have to sell a player unless they somehow make the CL groups. That's no secret, the board have said as much. It's what we need to do to become sustainable.

However I have much greater confidence in Rangers ability to identify cheap high-upside signings than Celtics. Rangers have invested heavily in the backroom staff and their transfer record under Ross Wilson and Andy Scoulding is very good. The entire recruitment team is also fully aligned and Wilson has full control over transfer strategy, with advanced data being heavily incorporated into the process.

Celtic don't have any of that. Their recruitment process isn't good, it's run by Lawwell and is often agent-led and it's how they signed a load of players in recent years that are completely awful fits for the way they play. The last time Celtic were regularly signing young players to sell on for a profit was the first Rodgers window, when they signed Dembele and Ajer. After that, they did sign Edouard but it was for a relative fortune. Rangers have by far the better recruitment process, so that should in theory lead to better transfers, which should lead to a better squad and better results.

Plus, the rebuilding job is much tougher at Celtic because they'll be losing more players in the next six months. Ajer, Christie, Edouard and Ntcham will all go, Elyounoussi, Duffy, Laxalt all go back after their loans. Elhamed is supposed to be going back to Israel. They need to buy another keeper regardless. There's a lot of work needing done there. It'll be much easier for Rangers to replace one or two than Celtic to replace eight or nine.

Football is cyclical, and eventually this will swing back the other way. But for the next 18 months at least, Rangers should be in the ascendancy. Could all change if Celtic decide to professionalise their recruitment though.

[8MileBU]

1 hour ago, KnightswoodBear said:

I don't think it's meek.  We're in a better position than we've been yet since returning to the top division.  We don't need to go all out and win this game.  

I've been saying for a while now that purely on the basis that they've been there and done it over numerous seasons, that I'd still have Celtic favourites for the title.  We've shown a brittleness in seasons past when we have had a dip in form.  We look like we may have sorted that but it hasn't really been tested yet.  How we react to a defeat will determine where the league title goes this season.

As others have said, how Lennon sets up his team will have a huge bearing on how the game goes.  If he reverts to form and picks his mates then it could play into out hands, but if he sticks with what's been working over the last few games then that could be a differy story. 

Do I want is to beat them handsomely?  Of course.  Looking at the bigger picture, is it necessary for us to change the way we've been going about things chasing that? Absolutely not. 

A draw keeps us at arm's length from them and keeps the pressure on Celtic.  After that any more dropped points from them increases that pressure.  I said weeks ago that if we got past this game with them no closer to us than we were at the start of December (or whenever it was) that I'd be delighted.  I stand by that. 

Absolutely spot on. It’s the Rangers-Twitter effect and absolutely brutal for one c**t getting carried away with the over confidence which then spreads like wildfire.

1 hour ago, alta-pete said:

With my blue tinted specs on you’re right. Their goalkeepers are woeful, Julien is out, Brown is past it, Edouard isn’t interested, Frimpong is a lightweight and Griffiths is their biggest goal threat. 

However, it is by far the biggest banana skin between here and the title. A shitfest draw, maintain the gap and move on is a perfectly acceptable outcome from a potential 6-pointer. I can’t see us doing a post-Dubai collapse again but there’s bound to be slips ups along the way. As long as we lose fewer games than them, we’ll be fine. 

Also absolutely spot-on. Folk have been reading too much into Celtic’s wee lapse in form recently but this could easily be turned around in 90 minutes as they still have the core of the squad that bested Rangers last season, as Rangers still have the core of the squad which buckled under the pressure last season. There’s definitely a different mentality and tactical approach about Rangers this season though, but the 2nd is massively important in proving it.

[KnightswoodBear]

1 minute ago, 8MileBU said:

Absolutely spot on. It’s the Rangers-Twitter effect and absolutely brutal for one c**t getting carried away with the over confidence which then spreads like wildfire.

 

I mean, if we do win, will I go on a hubristic gif posting spree that will see Death Stars and American Footballers strewn over the board?  Well.........

[Sheep62]

1 hour ago, Andrew Driver said:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gheorghe-hagi-makes-rangers-best-23243398?fbclid=IwAR1yd5HkY0A5rMQTiXnk_jjYv1SSms0zcvnkhsxqER0YVBy6UUv3TGZpTJA

Comedy gold

Manage to get the word "staunch" in the headline

"In Great Britain, everyone talks about Rangers"

You couldn't make it up

But yet The Record probably did 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

Fully agree that Rangers will have to sell a player unless they somehow make the CL groups. That's no secret, the board have said as much. It's what we need to do to become sustainable.

However I have much greater confidence in Rangers ability to identify cheap high-upside signings than Celtics. Rangers have invested heavily in the backroom staff and their transfer record under Ross Wilson and Andy Scoulding is very good. The entire recruitment team is also fully aligned and Wilson has full control over transfer strategy, with advanced data being heavily incorporated into the process.

Celtic don't have any of that. Their recruitment process isn't good, it's run by Lawwell and is often agent-led and it's how they signed a load of players in recent years that are completely awful fits for the way they play. The last time Celtic were regularly signing young players to sell on for a profit was the first Rodgers window, when they signed Dembele and Ajer. After that, they did sign Edouard but it was for a relative fortune. Rangers have by far the better recruitment process, so that should in theory lead to better transfers, which should lead to a better squad and better results.

Plus, the rebuilding job is much tougher at Celtic because they'll be losing more players in the next six months. Ajer, Christie, Edouard and Ntcham will all go, Elyounoussi, Duffy, Laxalt all go back after their loans. Elhamed is supposed to be going back to Israel. They need to buy another keeper regardless. There's a lot of work needing done there. It'll be much easier for Rangers to replace one or two than Celtic to replace eight or nine.

Football is cyclical, and eventually this will swing back the other way. But for the next 18 months at least, Rangers should be in the ascendancy. Could all change if Celtic decide to professionalise their recruitment though.

There's no doubt that Rangers' recruitment is much improved the last 18 months and has probably overtaken Celtic's, this is still their first cycle, they've not sold anyone yet, far less making a nice profit and sufficiently replacing them. The deflated post covid market needs to be negotiated too.

Celtic have experience in this and while there may be shortcomings in Lawell's recruitment, you can't question his ability to squeeze the maximum out of potential buyers. I'd also disagree with them not signing young players to sell on anymore, Frimpong, Soro and Turnbull could quite easily all go for a profit.

Do celtic have an advantage due to building up a stronger player and financial base ? Imo yes, Rangers have to get it right more often just to level the playing field.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

2 hours ago, DMCs said:

There is definitely an argument that could be made that both clubs were too caught up in domestic rivalry that they both missed the opportune moment to cash in on their strikers.

Perhaps. Covid hit though and I don't think anyone predicted the effect that would have.

[G51]

2 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

There's no doubt that Rangers' recruitment is much improved the last 18 months and has probably overtaken Celtic's, this is still their first cycle, they've not sold anyone yet, far less making a nice profit and sufficiently replacing them. The deflated post covid market needs to be negotiated too.

Celtic have experience in this and while there may be shortcomings in Lawell's recruitment, you can't question his ability to squeeze the maximum out of potential buyers. I'd also disagree with them not signing young players to sell on anymore, Frimpong, Soro and Turnbull could quite easily all go for a profit.

Do celtic have an advantage due to building up a stronger player and financial base ? Imo yes, Rangers have to get it right more often just to level the playing field.

Of course the proof will be in the numbers, but it's not Wilson's first time selling players for big fees. He has plenty of experience doing that at Southampton.

Lawwell may well be good at getting good fees for players, but that doesn't count for much when the players you're selling are of a diminished quality. As for Frimpong, Soro and Turnbull - none of these guys are near the levels of Ajer, Edouard, Dembele, Tierney etc. Frimpong is constantly out of position defensively, can't win aerial battles and can't really cross the ball. Soro and Turnbull might turn out good, but so far they've only done it in dead rubbers and against bottom six sides. And Soro was a Dudu Dahan signing - even if it works out, Celtic basically signed him because they knew his agent. That isn't a good way to do business, as teams like Arsenal are finding out. Of the three, Turnbull is the most likely to be sold for good money, but he still has plenty to add to his game to get there.

Celtic's advantage in the player department is about to be wiped out in the next six months when all their good ones are sold. That'll give them money, but I don't see why anyone would trust them to spend it well. And if they don't, that financial advantage is permanently erased.

 

[gannonball]

Some big claims being made on here. Find it strange that a club that has won the last 12 domestic trophy’s going and made millions profit is run badly but a club that has never won a major trophy and surviving off soft loans is.

[wingnut]

Celtic have to win and even then the games in hand need to be won as well and for me that’s a big ask and we’d still be playing catch up,past few derby games we’ve been bullied as well,got to go with Griff n Eddy up front,think we’ll score but defence speaks for itself 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

4 minutes ago, G51 said:

Of course the proof will be in the numbers, but it's not Wilson's first time selling players for big fees. He has plenty of experience doing that at Southampton.

There's a difference between selling for a good fee and selling because of a need to balance the books, as Rangers will eventually need to do.

Who's going for big profits and fees ?

Kamara, Barasic and Morelos will certainly make a profit, although in the case of Morelos, I think Rangers have missed the optimum selling window.

25 minutes ago, G51 said:

And Soro was a Dudu Dahan signing 

He also brought Marciano and his lovely wife to Edinburgh, therefore I will not have a bad word said about about everyone's favourite Israeli super agent.

28 minutes ago, G51 said:

Celtic's advantage in the player department is about to be wiped out in the next six months when all their good ones are sold. That'll give them money, but I don't see why anyone would trust them to spend it well. And if they don't, that financial advantage is permanently erased.

I can't agree with this. Again, I'm not really wanting to go into celtic blogger/rangers are going bust again type stuff, but there's no way Rangers are achieving financial parity with Celtic for a good few years yet.

[Clockwork]

Still a long, long way to go this season, Celtic have improved significantly over the last few weeks, Turnbull now showing why he commanded the fee he was signed for. Rangers haven’t shown the composure of Oct/Nov but have picked up valuable points they might have dropped in recent seasons against Dundee United, Hibs, St Mirren etc. Grinding out wins instead of difficult and nervous drawn games.
Surely Celtic will plan to force the pace and tempo here, the reverse fixture at Parkhead was like a training game! [emoji15] Griffiths to start alongside Edouard, if Lennon really wants to bare his teeth and have a go at Rangers from the off.  Surely he won’t revert to type and start Brown though? In a game of this importance and against the threat posed by Rangers down the flanks and the solid support they have coming through the middle,  it would be a huge risk. Their goals tally in addition to the efforts of the forward line, so far this season is incredible.
A draw would certainly satisfy most Rangers fans I think, but surely the opportunity to create an even wider gap at this stage of the season is far too tempting!  With Kent back, it should make for a cracking battle across the park. Just hope both sides really go for it. Expect a very close game with not a baw hair between them, best use of available depth on the bench may well be the key in the latter stages of the game. 

[G51]

45 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Some big claims being made on here. Find it strange that a club that has won the last 12 domestic trophy’s going and made millions profit is run badly but a club that has never won a major trophy and surviving off soft loans is.

Wasn't the whole point of these sack the board protests that the club was being run terribly in the football department?

[AJF]

It seems there are some convinced that Edouard should’ve been sent off yesterday but with the SFA offices now closed, any retrospective punishment won’t come into play until after Saturday’s game

[Henrik's tongue]

Watching extended highlights of the past couple of years worth of Celtic v Rangers games on Sky just now.

 Neil Lennon is a terrible football manager. You can say what you like about recruitment policy and financial advantage and stuff but it boils down to Lennon being inadequate imo.

[G51]

33 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

There's a difference between selling for a good fee and selling because of a need to balance the books, as Rangers will eventually need to do.

Who's going for big profits and fees ?

Kamara, Barasic and Morelos will certainly make a profit, although in the case of Morelos, I think Rangers have missed the optimum selling window.

He also brought Marciano and his lovely wife to Edinburgh, therefore I will not have a bad word said about about everyone's favourite Israeli super agent.

I can't agree with this. Again, I'm not really wanting to go into celtic blogger/rangers are going bust again type stuff, but there's no way Rangers are achieving financial parity with Celtic for a good few years yet.

Morelos, Barisic, Kamara and Kent are the Rangers players you'll make a good fee on in the next two windows, should you want to. Joe Aribo will probably join them in the two windows after that.

Rangers and Celtic aren't in terribly different financial positions. Both make losses every year in their everyday operations. Celtic cover that shortfall through player sales, CL groups or burning through the cash they have in the bank. Rangers have covered it through shareholder debt for equity write-offs until now, and the stated aim is to change that and cover them through player sales or CL groups. Now that Celtic have had a season of burning through that cash in the bank (given no player sales or CL groups), that option probably isn't available to them any more.

So what happens if Rangers win the league, Celtic flog the players we mentioned above and Rangers sell one of Morelos/Kamara/Barisic/Kent? Assuming neither team makes the CL next year (a fair assumption given how difficult that is), then the potential automatic CL group qualification spot for next years winners becomes huge. Rangers will be going into that with a settled team that's just won a title, and Celtic will be in the midst of a rebuild. Rangers would be favourites to retain the league and with it, automatic CL qualification.

That wouldn't just close the financial gap, it would flip it. That's the roadmap for Rangers.

 

[Greenlantern]

Happy New Year ya filthy animals.

[gannonball]

39 minutes ago, G51 said:

Wasn't the whole point of these sack the board protests that the club was being run terribly in the football department?

We aren’t being run terribly, our success on and off the pitch proves that.
The protesters initially wanted Lennon out (there was no sack the board banners just Lennon to go) . However the board then basically went against the fans and had barriers put up, and basically said they are sticking with Lennon to spite the fans. If Lennon had been binned after either Prague game there would have been no board protests.

Our trophy cabinet is still full and our accounts in the black so its clearly not over how the club has been run, it’s  how they have treated the fans.

Edited December 31, 2020 by gannonball