The future of Scottish Amateur football

[Dev]

scottishamateurfootballnews.com/2021/02/12/the-big-amateur-debate-has-the-game-been-harshly-treated/

The Big Amateur Debate – Has The Game Been Harshly Treated?

12 FEB 2021SCOTTISH AMATEUR FOOTBALL NEWS

You could have heard a pin drop on Tuesday evening when an Official Social Media post revealed “The Government has today confirmed that they cannot currently commit to return dates for those affected leagues in the coming weeks”, writes Tom Scott.

I have not personally counted the number of Clubs and Officials who would have reacted to that latest update, but I can imagine the comments would have been a mixture of genuine anger and frustration.

Can you blame them? After the March (2020) notification to “cease football with immediate effect”, we have had start-stop-start- and stop again messages right across the board.

Some organisations managed one or more League games – others are holding out to play a reduced number of domestic fixtures – but many have thrown in the towel and aim to concentrate on season 2021-2021….that is if Clubs have not already folded!

Just to set the record straight in certain quarters, this is not just about going to a local park and having a game of football with your pals. No chance – not with over 1000 Clubs (at the last count) in Membership of the Scottish Amateur Football Association.

Talks will continue with all parties in the meantime we have been told, and a further updat is expected by 1st March, “but should not be seen as a proposed re-start day.”

The Physical and Mental Health issues have been a huge cause for concern over many months, and as a neutral observer – I am not involved with any Amateur Football Club – can anyone in authority produce figures that show Scottish Amateur Football Clubs have contributed to the number – increased they keep telling us – of Covid-19 cases?

And will the Government set out in language we all understand “What is their Exit Strategy to Football returning?” From where I stand, the game has been harshly treated!

At considerable expense, dedicated Officials have followed the same Covid protocols and regulations as other organisations who until recently were allowed to train and play.

I heard whispers that due to Clubs not having their own grounds this was part of the risk. Well, actually quite a few have, and maintain their Clubhouse/ Dressing Rooms, so is that not better? In any case, many “for hire” venues throughout the country are all.

Covid compliant. Staff have had their training etc, which actually means everyone needs to follow the rules more than they have already been doing!

Leagues throughout many areas of Scotland have actually been restructured to prevent excessive travelling. It is hardly a level playing field when you feel there is a clear case of discrimination.

OPEN TO DEBATE: Now have YOUR say on the subject of “No Amateur Football.” If YOU are an Official, Manager, Coach or Player, I welcome your comments. Has the Government stance been spot-on from Day One, or could alternative solutions been looked at collectively, constructively and implemented?

* Please remember we do not need opinions which border on legal action.

[eyeswideopen15]

For the life of me I cannot understand why people in the amateur game or the west of Scotland league have an issue with football being stopped. Amateur football has not been treated harshly by not being allowed to play, imo the WOSFL was being treated to slack by being allowed to play.

scottishamateurfootballnews.com/2021/02/12/the-big-amateur-debate-has-the-game-been-harshly-treated/
The Big Amateur Debate – Has The Game Been Harshly Treated?
12 FEB 2021SCOTTISH AMATEUR FOOTBALL NEWS
You could have heard a pin drop on Tuesday evening when an Official Social Media post revealed “The Government has today confirmed that they cannot currently commit to return dates for those affected leagues in the coming weeks”, writes Tom Scott.
I have not personally counted the number of Clubs and Officials who would have reacted to that latest update, but I can imagine the comments would have been a mixture of genuine anger and frustration.
Can you blame them? After the March (2020) notification to “cease football with immediate effect”, we have had start-stop-start- and stop again messages right across the board.
Some organisations managed one or more League games – others are holding out to play a reduced number of domestic fixtures – but many have thrown in the towel and aim to concentrate on season 2021-2021….that is if Clubs have not already folded!
Just to set the record straight in certain quarters, this is not just about going to a local park and having a game of football with your pals. No chance – not with over 1000 Clubs (at the last count) in Membership of the Scottish Amateur Football Association.
Talks will continue with all parties in the meantime we have been told, and a further updat is expected by 1st March, “but should not be seen as a proposed re-start day.”
The Physical and Mental Health issues have been a huge cause for concern over many months, and as a neutral observer – I am not involved with any Amateur Football Club – can anyone in authority produce figures that show Scottish Amateur Football Clubs have contributed to the number – increased they keep telling us – of Covid-19 cases?
And will the Government set out in language we all understand “What is their Exit Strategy to Football returning?” From where I stand, the game has been harshly treated!
At considerable expense, dedicated Officials have followed the same Covid protocols and regulations as other organisations who until recently were allowed to train and play.
I heard whispers that due to Clubs not having their own grounds this was part of the risk. Well, actually quite a few have, and maintain their Clubhouse/ Dressing Rooms, so is that not better? In any case, many “for hire” venues throughout the country are all.
Covid compliant. Staff have had their training etc, which actually means everyone needs to follow the rules more than they have already been doing!
Leagues throughout many areas of Scotland have actually been restructured to prevent excessive travelling. It is hardly a level playing field when you feel there is a clear case of discrimination.
OPEN TO DEBATE: Now have YOUR say on the subject of “No Amateur Football.” If YOU are an Official, Manager, Coach or Player, I welcome your comments. Has the Government stance been spot-on from Day One, or could alternative solutions been looked at collectively, constructively and implemented?
* Please remember we do not need opinions which border on legal action.

[Dev]

18 hours ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

For the life of me I cannot understand why people in the amateur game or the west of Scotland league have an issue with football being stopped. Amateur football has not been treated harshly by not being allowed to play, imo the WOSFL was being treated to slack by being allowed to play.

At the start of the Pandemic I think it's fair to say that most people assumed that playing football would help to spread the disease.

However, from the start of the 2020/21 season in England many leagues operated with many even allowing spectators into grounds. Even with Track & Trace and Testing no spread of the disease has yet, as far as I am aware, been attributed to playing, or spectating at, football outdoors. If anyone has evidence to the contrary then please provide the details.

At the same time that English football was being played the Govt in Wales allowed only a handful of clubs to operate at all. Despite that Wales has had a disastrously high rate of covid spread. In Scotland there seems to be a desire for the Govt to be different so come down hard on football even in those "professional" leagues as designated by the SGovt/SFA. These leagues have been working to strict protocols and no cases have, as far as I am aware, been put down to playing football in these leagues. There have been allegations made about unspecified clubs training and or playing friendlies when they "shouldn't have done". Even so no cases appear to arisen from even these situations - unless someone knows different.

The decisions by the SGovt seem to be based on wanting to be different from England rather than on scientifically based facts. They've chosen a half-way house between Wales and England but this doesn't seem to have made the slightest difference to the numbers of cases.  Anyone who can come up with a scientific answer for that please feel free to contribute to the debate.

At present there are a number of new variant covid strains out there and the details of why they make a difference seem sketchy, but will no doubt this will become clearer as more scientific data becomes available. It is noticeable though that none of the UK Govts has published the numbers of new cases for the various strains of covid. All they seem to be saying is that they now form the dominant strains of the disease with a higher proportion of cases from them than the original strain.

The number of cases is coming down, thankfully, everywhere, but where are the stats to show how quickly and to what extent the new strains are taking over? With the total numbers of new cases for of covid coming down then it makes sense that a new variant will form a higher % of current cases but does that automatically mean that the numbers of cases of the new variant strains are actually significantly increasing? It would be very interesting to see the actual figures but all UK Govts seem to be keeping these under wraps.

[pleslie99]

Its pointless really arguing about whether or not there is proof to say infections have come from playing or watching the game at amateur level. The whole point is to minimise risk, and this is what the SG and JRG have done by stopping us playing. The same reason everything is stopped below the championship now.

The decision to stop amateurs playing was to minimise risk, hundreds of amateur clubs with up to 25 players/coaches travelling across the country on a Saturday and Sunday mixing with others from other areas is a risk regardless of what people think and its not a priority. Noone can justify allowing thousands of untested people mingling at the weekend after, in a lot of cases, working with others during the week. There are businesses on their knees and numerous bigger priorities than us playing at a weekend. The LL league, EOS, SOS, WOS and everything else below league 2 should not have started in the 1st place. Considering there were no changing facilities etc, it was a farce to even begin. We won't be back playing until the powers that be deem it is safe to do so and it is deemed to not be a risk! Im as frustrated as the next person at not being able to get out on a pitch but whats more frustrating is those breaking the rules and thinking that their hobby is more important than that of everyone else in the country.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, pleslie99 said:

Its pointless really arguing about whether or not there is proof to say infections have come from playing or watching the game at amateur level. The whole point is to minimise risk, and this is what the SG and JRG have done by stopping us playing. The same reason everything is stopped below the championship now.

The decision to stop amateurs playing was to minimise risk, hundreds of amateur clubs with up to 25 players/coaches travelling across the country on a Saturday and Sunday mixing with others from other areas is a risk regardless of what people think and its not a priority. Noone can justify allowing thousands of untested people mingling at the weekend after, in a lot of cases, working with others during the week. There are businesses on their knees and numerous bigger priorities than us playing at a weekend. The LL league, EOS, SOS, WOS and everything else below league 2 should not have started in the 1st place. Considering there were no changing facilities etc, it was a farce to even begin. We won't be back playing until the powers that be deem it is safe to do so and it is deemed to not be a risk! Im as frustrated as the next person at not being able to get out on a pitch but whats more frustrating is those breaking the rules and thinking that their hobby is more important than that of everyone else in the country.

Agreed. It is all about Risk Assessment so what is the scientific evidence that justified the SGs policies on the closing down of football even when it is subject to the strict protocols which SG required?

[pleslie99]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

Agreed. It is all about Risk Assessment so what is the scientific evidence that justified the SGs policies on the closing down of football even when it is subject to the strict protocols which SG required?

As I said, there doesn't need to be scientific evidence. Its about risk which you agreed with. Its too risky to let thousands of people from all different communities mix every weekend whilst the rest of the country is told to stay at home. Sending a message about "stay at home" then allowing everyone to continue playing football is stupid! When the rules are relaxed we will get back to it. Its not a priority and regardless of how much we bleat about it, it never will be. Just because all amateur clubs agreed to follow procedures and put things in place to minimise risk, doesn't automatically mean we should be allowed to play! Thousands of businesses spent lots of money to make their premises covid safe and they aren't allowed to open, just because they have done so should they be allowed to open? Anyone trying to argue that grassroots football should be allowed right now has their priorities majorly wrong.

[Gordon6666]

I don’t think it’s just the playing of the game, car loads of committee and players travelling together must be a risk. Time to forget this season and concentrate on a fresh start in July.

[Dev]

19 hours ago, Gordon6666 said:

I don’t think it’s just the playing of the game, car loads of committee and players travelling together must be a risk. Time to forget this season and concentrate on a fresh start in July.

Here's the protocol which I referred to. Check it out as it suggests that you've not seen it or ?

 

[Dev]

On 13/02/2021 at 18:08, pleslie99 said:

As I said, there doesn't need to be scientific evidence. Its about risk which you agreed with. Its too risky to let thousands of people from all different communities mix every weekend whilst the rest of the country is told to stay at home. Sending a message about "stay at home" then allowing everyone to continue playing football is stupid! When the rules are relaxed we will get back to it. Its not a priority and regardless of how much we bleat about it, it never will be. Just because all amateur clubs agreed to follow procedures and put things in place to minimise risk, doesn't automatically mean we should be allowed to play! Thousands of businesses spent lots of money to make their premises covid safe and they aren't allowed to open, just because they have done so should they be allowed to open? Anyone trying to argue that grassroots football should be allowed right now has their priorities majorly wrong.

You obviously cannot have been familiar with the Protocols of the SFA :

 

[pleslie99]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

You obviously cannot have been familiar with the Protocols of the SFA :

 

I am well aware of the protocols of the SFA. But let's be honest here, just because teams follow protocols, does that mean that they should automatically be allowed to play and travel across the country when everyone else is stuck in their house?

Iv been involved in games back in September when we were allowed to play and the majority of the teams done their best to adhere to protocols. But this is grass roots. Every game I witnessed at least 2 of the following. fans, car sharing (full cars so it wasn't family members), handshakes, hugs, and a lack of social distancing at the side of the park. So although the protocols are in place, there is noone to enforce them and doesn't mean that it should be a free for all in playing games.

I understand your frustration but I think u need to look at the bigger picture and what is going on around the country before thinking that amateur football is being hard done by.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, pleslie99 said:

I am well aware of the protocols of the SFA. But let's be honest here, just because teams follow protocols, does that mean that they should automatically be allowed to play and travel across the country when everyone else is stuck in their house?

Iv been involved in games back in September when we were allowed to play and the majority of the teams done their best to adhere to protocols. But this is grass roots. Every game I witnessed at least 2 of the following. fans, car sharing (full cars so it wasn't family members), handshakes, hugs, and a lack of social distancing at the side of the park. So although the protocols are in place, there is noone to enforce them and doesn't mean that it should be a free for all in playing games.

I understand your frustration but I think u need to look at the bigger picture and what is going on around the country before thinking that amateur football is being hard done by.

You're right it is/was/would be difficult to make sure that protocols are followed. However, it can be done and was done so those who can were affected. 

[eyeswideopen15]

Dev have a day off mate.

There are also protocols for shops, pubs, restaurants, hairdressers and seeing friends and family. It doesn't mean that they were adhered to nor does it mean that during the worst stage of the worst pandemic In living memory we should be allowing recreational football to be played when people are either dying or losing there business due to being closed down. I love amatuer football and its been a part of my life for over 40 years but its nowhere near important enough to be going on at this minute in time.

I understand peoples mental health is important but there are other ways to exercise amd socialise rather than kicking a ball in groups of 22- 50 people

You're right it is/was/would be difficult to make sure that protocols are followed. However, it can be done and was done so those who can were affected. 

[Dev]

8 hours ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

Dev have a day off mate.

There are also protocols for shops, pubs, restaurants, hairdressers and seeing friends and family. It doesn't mean that they were adhered to nor does it mean that during the worst stage of the worst pandemic In living memory we should be allowing recreational football to be played when people are either dying or losing there business due to being closed down. I love amatuer football and its been a part of my life for over 40 years but its nowhere near important enough to be going on at this minute in time.

I understand peoples mental health is important but there are other ways to exercise amd socialise rather than kicking a ball in groups of 22- 50 people

Sadly people break rules. Always have done and always will do. 

Agreed about protocols for pubs etc. However, where's your evidence for covid being spread by people kicking a ball about in organised groups which are governed by protocols compared with covid being spread by social contacts such as you quote which have not been subject to the same stringent protocols?

It's OK to take the easy route here and kow-tow to the ill-informed knee jerk responses of the SP but this has been badly managed regarding controlled outdoor activities.

The present new variant situation may be another matter but there's scarcely any stats about how many cases out there have been via the new variants - just bland non-specific words. The stats on so many things are out there in great detail but I've not yet seen these for the new variants. If they're already published please can someone provide a link to the web site pages?

[eyeswideopen15]

Too many big words for me and for that reason I'm out.

Sadly people break rules. Always have done and always will do. 
Agreed about protocols for pubs etc. However, where's your evidence for covid being spread by people kicking a ball about in organised groups which are governed by protocols compared with covid being spread by social contacts such as you quote which have not been subject to the same stringent protocols?
It's OK to take the easy route here and kow-tow to the ill-informed knee jerk responses of the SP but this has been badly managed regarding controlled outdoor activities.
The present new variant situation may be another matter but there's scarcely any stats about how many cases out there have been via the new variants - just bland non-specific words. The stats on so many things are out there in great detail but I've not yet seen these for the new variants. If they're already published please can someone provide a link to the web site pages?

[pleslie99]

4 hours ago, Dev said:

Sadly people break rules. Always have done and always will do. 

Agreed about protocols for pubs etc. However, where's your evidence for covid being spread by people kicking a ball about in organised groups which are governed by protocols compared with covid being spread by social contacts such as you quote which have not been subject to the same stringent protocols?

It's OK to take the easy route here and kow-tow to the ill-informed knee jerk responses of the SP but this has been badly managed regarding controlled outdoor activities.

The present new variant situation may be another matter but there's scarcely any stats about how many cases out there have been via the new variants - just bland non-specific words. The stats on so many things are out there in great detail but I've not yet seen these for the new variants. If they're already published please can someone provide a link to the web site pages?

As I said I get your frustration with the decision, im as frustrated as the next person but you are way off the mark with your priorities.

You made the point about protocols being in place so we should be allowed to play. It was merely pointed out that there is protocols in place in all other industries and many of these are not allowed to open and trade so why should amateur football be above all them in the priority list?

I already pointed out to you that there is no evidence for recreational football causing any more infections, however, as you agreed in an earlier post. Its about risk, and managing that risk. Can you honestly say that thousands of guys (and girls) traveling across the country, mixing with others is a priority right now and a risk worth taking? Let's be honest here? Your annoyed you can't play, I get it. but there is a pandemic affecting the world, and your bleating about not being able to kick a ball? Its easy to blame the Scottish government,  they are an easy target, but look into other countries and see if their grass roots are playing........you will find not many, well not many with a high level of infections and deaths.

Accept its not going to change, accept its the right decision and do your part to help us all get through this so we can play sooner rather than later. If you can't do that then we will agree to disagree.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, pleslie99 said:

As I said I get your frustration with the decision, im as frustrated as the next person but you are way off the mark with your priorities.

You made the point about protocols being in place so we should be allowed to play. It was merely pointed out that there is protocols in place in all other industries and many of these are not allowed to open and trade so why should amateur football be above all them in the priority list?

I already pointed out to you that there is no evidence for recreational football causing any more infections, however, as you agreed in an earlier post. Its about risk, and managing that risk. Can you honestly say that thousands of guys (and girls) traveling across the country, mixing with others is a priority right now and a risk worth taking? Let's be honest here? Your annoyed you can't play, I get it. but there is a pandemic affecting the world, and your bleating about not being able to kick a ball? Its easy to blame the Scottish government,  they are an easy target, but look into other countries and see if their grass roots are playing........you will find not many, well not many with a high level of infections and deaths.

Accept its not going to change, accept its the right decision and do your part to help us all get through this so we can play sooner rather than later. If you can't do that then we will agree to disagree.

With respect, if you check my other posts I am sure that you will see that it's not about right now. It's about the pre covid new variant period. Summer/autumn 2020.

Looking ahead, under present circumstances, the football situation is (and always has been) that players, match officials, club officers, members of league committees, members of the various Scottish Associations and the SFA are registered on data bases with names and addresses kept, as a minimum requirement. They have always been traceable and completely accountable. Sadly, this fact does not appear to have come onto the SG's radar and it is significantly different from  so many others who have spread the disease and proved to be so elusive to track and trace, who give false names and addresses when asked, etc.

(If only everyone operated in such an organised way the epidemic here could have been kept under better control?)

With football so accountable through its' own regulation and with so many of the most vulnerable people already, or about to be vaccinated, there's no reason why organised outdoor activities cannot restart within the reasonably near future. All involved with football are accountable so if they do wrong they can be identified and dealt with appropriately (with no need for the SG to make nasty, child-like, threats to the whole of the sport when one breaks the rules).

 

[Andy groundhopper]

Down here in Bristol some of the grassroots leagues have said that they may play cup games after an April restart,to a June finish, with the Downs Lge Twitter saying clubs want to play  Sat Tues Sat just to give it a try. No idea whether any protocols will remain in place, think it's risky as I can imagine big crowds turning out. Hopefully next season will be almost normal everywhere.

[Dev]

I was thinking mainly about the SPFL and the senior Pyramid, although there must be lots of Amateurs with the facilities and organisation to maintain protocols. The Downs League used to be masses of teams playing matches on open ground, a bit like Hackney Wick? How to control matches when so many are going on at the same time in the same place? I am not sure about that being practical.

Maybe if the local case level is so low then something could be done?

[Andy groundhopper]

Yeah the Downs League is the still the same, 30-40 pitches spread out, but some run parallel to each other. Can imagine it'll be the same as before - turn up changed, shoot off after the game etc. However IF the pubs reopen then I'm guessing the clubs would go there afterwards. Guess it depends if players feel safe ?