Local team / glory hunting, etc. and so on

[Ralstonite]

34 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Spot on.

This notion that their fallow spells were anything of the sort, is laughable.

 

I'd even include the banter years as being actually successful for Rangers, not relative to their resources of course, but then their nine in a row ones weren't that either.   The fact is though that they won the vast majority of their matches, generally won the divisions they were in and reached cup semis and finals.  

Aye, I made the same point on here recently regarding the Banter Years! As you say, four promotions in five years and decent cup runs that we would be envious of.  I'd argue the biggest factor though, is that their fans could be certain they'd rise to the top of Scottish football. How many other clubs' fans can say the same?

When Rangers fans tell me they've had it tough for the last few years, I laugh in their faces.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, AJF said:

 

Of course, when I was younger I'd always hold the opinion that Rangers were the best, but I'm sure most kids held the same opinion in respect of their own teams.

I can honestly say that I've never, ever felt that Queens were the best, even as a young kid.

There is literally nothing special about them.  They're mine though, which is the point.

[Ralstonite]

4 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Incidentally we could use the city of Dundee for a kind of laboratory test here.

Historically the position of Dundee and Dundee Hibs/United was not dissimilar to that of Hearts or Hibs and St Bernards or Leith Athletic - or that of Falkirk and East Stirlingshire. Dundee United were younger and basically a lower league outfit till 1960s while Dundee were competing for league titles, reaching cup finals and going on runs in Europe. Unsurprisingly we find Tannadice crowds averaging a fraction of Dens.

Yet gradually over last 40-odd years this situation first balanced (and in allegiance not just attendance) then moved well into United's favour (at least in attendance). Have their fans just had more kids? Unlikely. There has been 'loyalty shift'. Is that shift unconnected to United's greater success since 1980s? Again unlikely.

An excellent example! I have heard that before, regarding Dundee FC being the dominant club. I've always been fascinated with the Dundee clubs, simply because their grounds are so close and there's no apparent reason why a Dundonian would have an allegiance to one or the other.

[Dunfermline Don]

I was born and brought up in Dunfermline but my Dad was a Dons fan and as soon as I was old enough used to take me to some of the away games nearby. This was in the late 70s and despite the Pars having been a top side a decade before everyone at my primary school seemed to support Rangers or Celtic. The only other Dons fans were from families with links to the North East.
By the mid 80s there were a few more kids wearing red tops in the area, but some never went to any games and were obviously jumping on the Fergie bandwagon.
I would also go along to EEP with friends from school from time to time as this was the start of Leishmania in West Fife and it was a lot easier to just turn up for the occasional game and see who was in the regular spot on the terraces.
I never took to either side of the Old Firm as I couldn’t understand why the fans of the clubs seem to prefer to show how British or Irish they were and not celebrate their Scottishness.
It has almost gone full circle for me now as despite my best efforts my boys are all Pars fans and I have had a season ticket for the last few years.
The Dons are still my team though and my boys will also occasionally come to a game in the granite city if asked.

[HibeeJibee]

4 minutes ago, Ralstonite said:

An excellent example! I have heard that before, regarding Dundee FC being the dominant club. I've always been fascinated with the Dundee clubs, simply because their grounds are so close and there's no apparent reason why a Dundonian would have an allegiance to one or the other.

Here are their respective average league attendances at 5-year intervals from 1911-12 to 1971-72:

Dundee              6,618   4,747   14,429   10,447   7,789   10,195   |   13,440   20,467   12,000   15,934   9,036   8,020
Dundee Utd     2,000  not lge     3,211     7,974   6,300      3,088   |     9,769      8,280     3,656      9,380   7,342   6,766

and continuing from 1976-77 to 2016-17:

Dundee              4,518   7,570     7,513   3,690   2,797   7,958   3,880   4,224   6,410
Dundee Utd     7,127   9,416   10,432   8,088   9,339   8,007   7,147   7,482   6,584

[Hedgecutter]

47 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Spot on.

This notion that their fallow spells were anything of the sort, is laughable.

 

I'd even include the banter years as being actually successful for Rangers, not relative to their resources of course, but then their nine in a row ones weren't that either.   The fact is though that they won the vast majority of their matches, generally won the divisions they were in and reached cup semis and finals.  

Won 33 games from 36 in an undefeated League 1 campaign for example, with a full-house as fans flocked to see them lift a trophy.  What a really rough ride that must have been for them.  

The only 'rough time' they really had to endure was that point-and-laugh 2014/15 season.  After that?  Won the next season by 11 points.

That said... it's worth pointing out that in the summers before the Covid, I would very, very rarely see a Rangers strip worn around Aberdeen, when 10 years ago it was relatively commonplace.  When I first started helping with Scouts around Aberdeen, there would  frequently be a couple of Rangers tops worn for games, but for a few years now they have nearly all been Aberdeen fans (the occasional Celtic top has been noted).  Not a single Rangers one for a good while now.  I suppose that not a lot of Rangers fans are going to jump ship once they're established fans, but I would imagine that there will be a notable decrease in revenue in a few years time when there aren't same number of blue recruits coming through 'the system'.

[YER SISTERS YER MAW]

Glory hunting is just part of the explanation.
If Accies were to be bought by a Belorussian kleptocrat gazillionnaire, and started winning stuff, would the thousands of OF fans from S. Lanarkshire start supporting them instead? 
Unlikely. Wonder what the other factor could be [emoji6]

Aye, I wouldn't welcome 10,000 Rangers or Celtic locals to suddenly start supporting Accies anyway. I love the seethe our tinpot support generates.[emoji846]

[AmericanFan]

8 hours ago, Theatom said:

Which ones are the Kaflics and which the Proddies

I didn't mean in reference to that aspect, more the financial side and people from town's of smaller teams would root for Yankees/Sox.

[Dons_1988]

35 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

Won 33 games from 36 in an undefeated League 1 campaign for example, with a full-house as fans flocked to see them lift a trophy.  What a really rough ride that must have been for them.  

The only 'rough time' they really had to endure was that point-and-laugh 2014/15 season.  After that?  Won the next season by 11 points.

That said... it's worth pointing out that in the summers before the Covid, I would very, very rarely see a Rangers strip worn around Aberdeen, when 10 years ago it was relatively commonplace.  When I first started helping with Scouts around Aberdeen, there would  frequently be a couple of Rangers tops worn for games, but for a few years now they have nearly all been Aberdeen fans (the occasional Celtic top has been noted).  Not a single Rangers one for a good while now.  I suppose that not a lot of Rangers fans are going to jump ship once they're established fans, but I would imagine that there will be a notable decrease in revenue in a few years time when there aren't same number of blue recruits coming through 'the system'.

I prefer to think that the good and vigilant people of the granite city have just stamped out this unacceptable behaviour. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

All these misty eyed Rangers supporters following their Father and his Father before him had a choice in 2012. They decided to pretend it was the same team with all the baggage and go on their not so merry way.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

Here are their respective average league attendances at 5-year intervals from 1911-12 to 1971-72:

Dundee              6,618   4,747   14,429   10,447   7,789   10,195   |   13,440   20,467   12,000   15,934   9,036   8,020
Dundee Utd     2,000  not lge     3,211     7,974   6,300      3,088   |     9,769      8,280     3,656      9,380   7,342   6,766

and continuing from 1976-77 to 2016-17:

Dundee              4,518   7,570     7,513   3,690   2,797   7,958   3,880   4,224   6,410
Dundee Utd     7,127   9,416   10,432   8,088   9,339   8,007   7,147   7,482   6,584

It is quite interesting.

My Dad always claimed that United were tiny and Dundee sometimes got more for reserve games.  I never believed him given how much that changed.  I do think he overstates it, but given that he was a teenager in the fifties, I can see where the idea came from. 

United kind of catch up earlier than I'd have thought though.  They get close in 60/61 and finally overtake in 67/68, staying ahead for the next three seasons.  Dundee then narrowly gain the upper hand until 76/77, by which time Dundee had become a yoyo club, leaving United consistently ahead from then on.

I don't know if there were actual defections, but there must have at least been generational shifts within families.  Perhaps there's truth in the idea of lots of United fans coming from Angus, and multiplying in number as transport became easier and cheaper.  I suppose such an effect alongside Dundee gates dropping as the side get poorer, could account for it a bit.

The biggest single shift seems to involve United jumping from 2691 in 58/59 to 11,382 in 1960/61, a spell that sees Dundee's gates remain pretty constant at around 12,000.  I'm assuming that included a promotion for United and seemed, almost overnight, to place the clubs on a similar footing, just as Dundee were about to enjoy their greatest glory.

I've no idea what any of this means.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Monkey Tennis

[Aim Here]

34 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

All these misty eyed Rangers supporters following their Father and his Father before him had a choice in 2012. They decided to pretend it was the same team with all the baggage and go on their not so merry way.

Besides, their das were also a  bunch of gloryhunting wankers.

[Ye Olde Hamiltonian]

9 hours ago, Uncle Scan said:

Your bottom line is getting rarer as time goes on

I'm finding they hate the local team more than their rival

To them only 2 teams exist you're one or the other

Never the fitba other issues determine your team especially since 2014

Yep,I find on local Social Media pages and in person that there are a helluva lot of Old Firm fans in Hamilton who despise us nearly as much as the other cheek.

This reminds me of 2008 when Accies fans planted a large HAFC flag on the roof of The Academical Vaults after winning The First Division.The Celtic lot hated it and a few weeks later after an Old Firm game they took it down and set it on fire which caused a few "incidents" afterwards for a few years.

Only in Scotland would this happen.I've lived in a few countries and never witnessed the vitriolic hatred to their local team which you get here.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Ye Olde Hamiltonian

[Bairnardo]

 

22 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Besides, their das were also a  bunch of gloryhunting wankers.

This

9 minutes ago, Ye Olde Hamiltonian said:

Yep,I find on local Social Media pages and in person that there are a replica lot of Old Firm fans in Hamilton who despise us nearly as much as the other cheek.

This reminds me of 2008 when Accies fans planted a large HAFC flag on the roof of The Academical Vaults after winning The First Division.The Celtic lot hated it and a few weeks later after an Old Firm game they took it down and set it on fire which caused a few "incidents" afterwards for a few years.

Only in Scotland would this happen.I've lived in a few countries and never witnessed the vitriolic hatred to their local team which you get here.

 

And this. I have known loads over the years who have this visceral hate for Falkirk. Massively overcompensating IMO. Pathetic

[EpicMike]

49 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It is quite interesting.

My Dad always claimed that United were tiny and Dundee sometimes got more for reserve games.  I never believed him given how much that changed.  I do think he overstates it, but given that he was a teenager in the fifties, I can see where the idea came from. 

United kind of catch up earlier than I'd have thought though.  They get close in 60/61 and finally overtake in 67/68, staying ahead for the next three seasons.  Dundee then narrowly gain the upper hand until 76/77, by which time Dundee had become a yoyo club, leaving United consistently ahead from then on.

I don't know if there were actual defections, but there must have at least been generational shifts within families.  Perhaps there's truth in the idea of lots of United fans coming from Angus, and multiplying in number as transport became easier and cheaper.  I suppose such an effect alongside Dundee gates dropping as the side get poorer, could account for it a bit.

The biggest single shift seems to involve United jumping from 2691 in 58/59 to 11,382 in 1960/61, a spell that sees Dundee's gates remain pretty constant at around 12,000.  I'm assuming that included a promotion for United and seemed, almost overnight, to place the clubs on a similar footing, just as Dundee were about to enjoy their greatest glory.

I've no idea what any of this means.

Some of the old timers I speak to say a lot of fans used to go to both Dundee and United games, by the time the rivalry solidified and you were expected to choose one or the other both sides were fairly even. I doubt there were many defections (as in a fan completely switching allegiances), most likely it was just fans fully committing to one of the clubs.

[Jacksgranda]

6 hours ago, coprolite said:

Homophobe. You could have had big Lorenzo, looking all mills and boony, or Laudrup if you prefer the boyband type. Plenty to choose from if you just wanted a bit of rough. 

Mrs Mols?

[Monkey Tennis]

32 minutes ago, EpicMike said:

Some of the old timers I speak to say a lot of fans used to go to both Dundee and United games, by the time the rivalry solidified and you were expected to choose one or the other both sides were fairly even. I doubt there were many defections (as in a fan completely switching allegiances), most likely it was just fans fully committing to one of the clubs.

Yes, I think you did get people going to watch both - I've heard that before.  I suppose that could act as a bridge for switching or generational drift.  I can't believe that huge numbers would have done that though.

For me, the mystery involves United quadrupling their gates over a couple of seasons, while Dundee's remained constant.  Who were these new fans?  They can't all have been Dundee fans heading out every Saturday and it's not as if there was much historic evidence of a dormant United fan base, suddenly stirred into life.

Something interesting happened and it's clearly related to the clubs' changing fortunes.  I'm still mystefied though, by the fact that the biggest shift towards United came well before Dundee started a decline on the field.  Indeed it arrived just before Dundee hit their peak.

 

[D.A.F.C]

I really can’t understand how someone could support the OF, go to a game against their local side, and cheer watching millionaires beat local kids and journeymen types.

Same people support English teams and have banter with fellow Scottish glory hunters on social media. 
 

I find this behaviour really odd. Sure support the OF but at some point surely you must feel like a w**k cheering them on against your local team not to mention all the bigotry and pish that comes with it. Every time I go to Ibrox or parkhead you see thousands of man child types who get raging mad at any slur or song against them or, god fobid, you actually win.

Best fans in the world my arse, they’re the worst in Britain. Worse than gammon West Ham or millwall all of them.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

Never thought I'd be siding with the Rangers lads on this but saying that supporting your local team is the only correct thing to do and then arguing that you don't have to support a lower/non-league team closer to you than a more successful team in the same town, or swap teams every time you move, doesn't seem all that consistent to me

[aaa]

7 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, I think you did get people going to watch both - I've heard that before.  I suppose that could act as a bridge for switching or generational drift.  I can't believe that huge numbers would have done that though.

For me, the mystery involves United quadrupling their gates over a couple of seasons, while Dundee's remained constant.  Who were these new fans?  They can't all have been Dundee fans heading out every Saturday and it's not as if there was much historic evidence of a dormant United fan base, suddenly stirred into life.

Something interesting happened and it's clearly related to the clubs' changing fortunes.  I'm still mystefied though, by the fact that the biggest shift towards United came well before Dundee started a decline on the field.  Indeed it arrived just before Dundee hit their peak.

 

I've no idea where your getting this.United  were getting 8-9000 in the forties just the same as the sixties.If any thing United's support dropped during Dundee's decline.