St Johnstone v Motherwell, 21/11/20

[PauloPerth]

15 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Honest to god, the stats absolutely kill the soul of football for me. 5 ‘accurate long passes’ could just as easily be 5 lucky punts that found Tony Watt’s head.   

Not a go at you @capt_oats or indeed anyone else, other than maybe our manager. He’ll see the same stats that show how much we dominate games as RandomGuy will. It could be what’s stopping him from making the changes that are so obviously needed for us to be an effective team in the final third. We give full backs and holding midfielders a tough time with a lot of our play but centre halves have it easy against us really. If they mark May there’s not really any other danger and it seems to be crosses into the box are all we muster in an attacking sense. 

 

[glenrothes 1884 saint]

^^^^^ This all day long 

[RandomGuy.]

41 minutes ago, Kyle said:

He’ll see the same stats that show how much we dominate games as RandomGuy will. 

Depends how deep you delve into them tbh. 

They show we're not creating quality chances regularly, but they also showed that last season which is the point I've been trying to make to folk who think going to 2 up top instantly solves our issues.

[Kyle]

15 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Depends how deep you delve into them tbh. 

They show we're not creating quality chances regularly, but they also showed that last season which is the point I've been trying to make to folk who think going to 2 up top instantly solves our issues.

I'm not in the 'we should go 2 up' brigade but we need to find a way to get more support for May. We work our way into excellent positions, produce a cross of varying quality and there's either no one there because May is involved in the build up or he's marked in the box. The winger on the other side is often in the box as well, or arriving into the box, but Wotherspoon/Conway/O'Halloran don't usually do much in that situation either.

I like the stability the shape gives us, I like the freedom the centre halves have to support and underlap as well but 'we are doing the right things' doesn't cut it when we're more than a third of the way through the league season. If it hadn't been for Mugabi making a poor challenge on Saturday, we wouldn't have scored. We need to get more support to the striker, whether that's tweaking it to a 5-2-1-2 or pushing one of the midfielders closers to May in the current shape, I'm not sure.

This squad is more than good enough to finish in the top 6 but it wont unless something is changed. 

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I like the stability the shape gives us, I like the freedom the centre halves have to support and underlap as well but 'we are doing the right things' doesn't cut it when we're more than a third of the way through the league season. If it hadn't been for Mugabi making a poor challenge on Saturday, we wouldn't have scored. We need to get more support to the striker, whether that's tweaking it to a 5-2-1-2 or pushing one of the midfielders closers to May in the current shape, I'm not sure.

This squad is more than good enough to finish in the top 6 but it wont unless something is changed. 

We're no better at creating chances than last season, which suggests the players are the issue.

Last season Hendry is in form. In this game its him who replaces May instead of Kane, understandable why CD didn't choose Hendry this season tbf. Do you see Hendry last season scoring the chance Kane did at the end?

We all walk away after a 2-1 win v Motherwell talking about how solid a win it was.

Fine margins and all that. Conway scores from 2 yards v Celtic and we potentially win that game. 

[PauloPerth]

52 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

They show we're not creating quality chances regularly, but they also showed that last season which is the point I've been trying to make to folk who think going to 2 up top instantly solves our issues.

I've suggested this just as an option.  Or possibly going with just two centre backs and getting another player higher up the park.   An easy tweak for home games would be May + 1 striker with Conway or Wotherspoon in behind.   Width and deliveries into the box from the wing backs. 

As Kyle says, we need to get better support for May.  I think May's all round game is vastly improved and he's back looking confident, with players up around him to work with I think he could have a massive impact on this league.

Agree with you about Conway v Celtic, a bad miss that possibly cost us the game.

[Valentino Bolognese]

57 minutes ago, Kyle said:

This squad is more than good enough to finish in the top 6 but it wont unless something is changed. 

This has been said a lot this year, but it's not gospel. 

The cheeks, Aberdeen and Hibs have, I would say, better squads than us. So that leaves 2 places. I'd say that Motherwell have as good a squad, so that's the top six we're talking about, so we need to have a better squad than the other 6 teams. 

Now we are strong in central defence, decent wing-backs and a better than average central midfield (possibly). But are our striking and goalkeeping options that much better than the others? I'm not sure we can argue that. 

I don't think the squad is 'more than good enough', I think it's good enough to challenge for top 6, and if we can sort out the final third issue whether it's personnel or tactics (don't think it's attitude or fitness to be fair), then yes we should be top 6. We've a strong bench but it's very shallow. I'm just not sure we can be confident it's 'more than good enough'. 

Saying all that though, I expect we will finish top 6 and will be disappointed f we don't, it's one of the weakest divisions for a while, understandably. 

 

ETA the Hibs boys don't seem in much of a hurry to start a match thread. Apathy reigns. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Valentino Bolognese

[RandomGuy.]

14 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

I've suggested this just as an option.  Or possibly going with just two centre backs and getting another player higher up the park.   An easy tweak for home games would be May + 1 striker with Conway or Wotherspoon in behind.   Width and deliveries into the box from the wing backs. 

As Kyle says, we need to get better support for May.  I think May's all round game is vastly improved and he's back looking confident, with players up around him to work with I think he could have a massive impact on this league.

Agree with you about Conway v Celtic, a bad miss that possibly cost us the game.

I'd like to see Wotherspoon, May and Melamed together tbh, in some form of set up, probably the one you're suggesting with Wotherspoon central behind May/Melamed, similar to the set up v Peterhead. 

My worry would be that neither Tanser or McNamara are great at beating men, so 9 times out of 10 they'd have to cut back, or just whip a cross in, whereas now they both have wingers in front to link with.

I don't believe a 5-2-1-2 would end up hugely different to the 5-2-3 in practice.

[Radford]

For me, you can see us trying to work things differently in the attacking third. You aren't always going to find the answers overnight but when you have a shape and structure as good as ours, you don't throw it all away. I'm still confident it'll come and we'll have a good season. 

In the wide areas, the decisions are getting better but the execution needs to improve a bit. I don't have the numbers to support this (and that's where they are relevant IMO if you have the time and inclination to try and support an argument) but I don't think we are just throwing balls in the box so often now; with our players, there isn't much point in just putting crosses in if the opposition backline is set as we don't have enough of a threat. You put the ball in early if there is a player out of position (e.g. May's goal against St Mirren) but I think we are now trying to work it more if that isn't the case. Right idea but the passing sometimes needs to be a bit better. 

It's funny how folk see things differently as there are clearly fans not happy with what they are seeing. I think this is the most structured I've seen a Saints team in a long time. Did you never know that the game plan was under TW?

I'm going to say it, I'm quite glad we've changed manager. 

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, Radford said:

I'm going to say it, I'm quite glad we've changed manager. 

[Widge]

7 minutes ago, Radford said:

For me, you can see us trying to work things differently in the attacking third. You aren't always going to find the answers overnight but when you have a shape and structure as good as ours, you don't throw it all away. I'm still confident it'll come and we'll have a good season. 

In the wide areas, the decisions are getting better but the execution needs to improve a bit. I don't have the numbers to support this (and that's where they are relevant IMO if you have the time and inclination to try and support an argument) but I don't think we are just throwing balls in the box so often now; with our players, there isn't much point in just putting crosses in if the opposition backline is set as we don't have enough of a threat. You put the ball in early if there is a player out of position (e.g. May's goal against St Mirren) but I think we are now trying to work it more if that isn't the case. Right idea but the passing sometimes needs to be a bit better. 

It's funny how folk see things differently as there are clearly fans not happy with what they are seeing. I think this is the most structured I've seen a Saints team in a long time. Did you never know that the game plan was under TW?

I'm going to say it, I'm quite glad we've changed manager. 

It's funny you say this, as I noticed it on Saturday. There were a number of times where Conway was free to put a ball in the box (as he's been doing this season) and he checked back played it short to McNamara and we tried to play it to feet and work an opportunity. Whilst it didn't quite pay off, I can't help but think that the players and coaches have realised there's literally no point in aiming for Stevie Mays head when he's the only man in the box. Hendry is the only striker capable of winning and attacking the ball in the air, but even then he's dependant on others being in the box to distract defenders giving him space. If he's the only person in the 18 yard box, he isn't scoring even if he was confident like last year. 

I said the same thing on WAP, it's not the shapes fault we're not creating chances, it's the players decision making. The amount of times I was left cursing at the TV when yet again one of our players picked the wrong pass, or over elaborated instead of taking it in to feet, turning and playing it forward. The shape is allowing us to control games, dictate play and look really, really solid at the back. Teams aren't troubling us like they were last season and it's not a stretch to say if we're a little braver in attack we'd stay as solid defensively. The system gets us the ball back so, so quickly at times, I can't help but think that the team would improve substantially with some pace in the wide areas. Wotherspoon and Conway are great at creating pockets of space, playing passes and are very game intelligent; however we're missing someone to beat a man for pace or with a little bit of skill. Dare I say it, we'd look very, very dangerous with a Matty Kennedy on one of the flanks. He had great work rate and could beat a fullback to get in behind. O'Halloran isn't the answer, he's not clever enough and to be honest if he gets a new contract I'll be disappointed. I think to get the best out of this team/shape another winger is the best use of resources, but one who actually has an enigmatic presence and pace on the break. Too many times our players get space in front of them and don't exploit it. 

So there you go RG, your next challenge. Find a young, pacy winger who's got excellent ball carrying stats that has decent ball recovery and tackle stats in the defensive third. 

 

[Desp]

1 hour ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

The cheeks, Aberdeen and Hibs have, I would say, better squads than us. So that leaves 2 places. I'd say that Motherwell have as good a squad, so that's the top six we're talking about, so we need to have a better squad than the other 6 teams. 

I think the league is shaping up to be three mini-leagues of four. 

The top four will stay as it is. The top two might change position, as might Hibs and Aberdeen, but they'll be top four. 

I think both our clubs are in the middle four. Those who are challenging for the two remaining Top 6 places, and the potential European spot for 5th. Dundee Utd & Killie will be the other two. I don't think there's a massive amount between those sides (Utd's front players will keep them in the hunt, IMO). A decent run at the beginning of the year could be enough for any of those clubs to nail a Top 6 finish. 

The bottom four (Ross County, Livi, St Mirren and Accies) will be battling us to be the least shite and avoid going down and the play-off spot. 

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, Desp said:

I think the league is shaping up to be three mini-leagues of four. 

The top four will stay as it is. The top two might change position, as might Hibs and Aberdeen, but they'll be top four. 

I think both our clubs are in the middle four. Those who are challenging for the two remaining Top 6 places, and the potential European spot for 5th. Dundee Utd & Killie will be the other two. I don't think there's a massive amount between those sides (Utd's front players will keep them in the hunt, IMO). A decent run at the beginning of the year could be enough for any of those clubs to nail a Top 6 finish. 

The bottom four (Ross County, Livi, St Mirren and Accies) will be battling us to be the least shite and avoid going down and the play-off spot. 

Broadly agree. There's a chance that Livi or St Mirren might turn the corner, maybe with a new manager, my view is they both have players that could get into the middle  group. Maybe even County, but they look to be in a death spiral. Hamilton might somehow beat the drop but they won't trouble the middle four. 

Saying all that, it's still quite tight and a covid outbreak at any team could still play a massive part in the season.

[Archie McSquackle]

I think it's fair to say if the Covid 2 had been available we'd have kept the Mark O'Hara: Centre Back experiment going and tbh, even though it's a small sample size you saw the difference when you took him out and replaced him with Bev - purely in terms of 'on the ball'.
I mean, I'm not about to pile on - we signed Bev because he's a unit and offered cover not because we were expecting Rio Ferdinand. He's also been out for over a month.
As [mention=35342]ropy[/mention] says we saw an improvement in Mugabi at the centre of a back 3 because it mitigated the areas of his game that aren't his strong suit. If we're sticking with a back 4 then at the moment IMO O'Hara's probably still better value at CB complementing Gallagher than he is in midfield with Campbell, Maguire & Crawford available.
Having said that, I thought the fact he took Campbell's position rather than revert to the holding role and scored from the sort of area we've seen Campbell get into suggests that he's more suited to that sort of role...but I think we all knew that anyway.
[mention=39580]Desp[/mention] mentioned it in the general thread but considering it was his first start Crawford showed up pretty well and apparently his numbers were alright - if you care about that sort of thing.
 

Is 2 tackles and 3 interceptions considered to be good for a central midfielder these days?

[The Marly]

We're no better at creating chances than last season, which suggests the players are the issue.
Last season Hendry is in form. In this game its him who replaces May instead of Kane, understandable why CD didn't choose Hendry this season tbf. Do you see Hendry last season scoring the chance Kane did at the end?
We all walk away after a 2-1 win v Motherwell talking about how solid a win it was.
Fine margins and all that. Conway scores from 2 yards v Celtic and we potentially win that game. 

Not just Hendry last season. In last season's system, Ali McCann was getting into the box more and weighed in with a few goals. This system doesn't allow him to do that it would seem.

[welldaft]

£12 to watch the Betfred cup stream at Fir Park this Saturday. 

Well done Motherwell. Good to see sensible pricing. If only it would catch on.....

I will be signing in up for that. 

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, The Marly said:

Not just Hendry last season. In last season's system, Ali McCann was getting into the box more and weighed in with a few goals. This system doesn't allow him to do that it would seem.

Tbf thats the one downside to this system nobody can argue with, we definitely lose something with him deeper.

[Nelly78]

5 hours ago, Widge said:

It's funny you say this, as I noticed it on Saturday. There were a number of times where Conway was free to put a ball in the box (as he's been doing this season) and he checked back played it short to McNamara and we tried to play it to feet and work an opportunity. Whilst it didn't quite pay off, I can't help but think that the players and coaches have realised there's literally no point in aiming for Stevie Mays head when he's the only man in the box. Hendry is the only striker capable of winning and attacking the ball in the air, but even then he's dependant on others being in the box to distract defenders giving him space. If he's the only person in the 18 yard box, he isn't scoring even if he was confident like last year. 

I said the same thing on WAP, it's not the shapes fault we're not creating chances, it's the players decision making. The amount of times I was left cursing at the TV when yet again one of our players picked the wrong pass, or over elaborated instead of taking it in to feet, turning and playing it forward. The shape is allowing us to control games, dictate play and look really, really solid at the back. Teams aren't troubling us like they were last season and it's not a stretch to say if we're a little braver in attack we'd stay as solid defensively. The system gets us the ball back so, so quickly at times, I can't help but think that the team would improve substantially with some pace in the wide areas. Wotherspoon and Conway are great at creating pockets of space, playing passes and are very game intelligent; however we're missing someone to beat a man for pace or with a little bit of skill. Dare I say it, we'd look very, very dangerous with a Matty Kennedy on one of the flanks. He had great work rate and could beat a fullback to get in behind. O'Halloran isn't the answer, he's not clever enough and to be honest if he gets a new contract I'll be disappointed. I think to get the best out of this team/shape another winger is the best use of resources, but one who actually has an enigmatic presence and pace on the break. Too many times our players get space in front of them and don't exploit it. 

So there you go RG, your next challenge. Find a young, pacy winger who's got excellent ball carrying stats that has decent ball recovery and tackle stats in the defensive third. 

 

There's something not quite working with the formation, particularly with the wide players. Whether that's down to their on field decisions or the manager's instructions, who knows? 

If you're playing 3 up front, then you either want the 2 wide forwards to play as inside forwards, cutting infield and getting in the box, which opens up the space for overlapping wing backs, or you want them to stay wide, which opens up the channel for underlapping full backs. We seem to do neither and end up with our wing backs and wide attackers both out on the wing. Chuck in the overlapping centre half and Stevie May wandering out wide as well, and we quite often end up with 3 or 4 players standing within 10 yards of each other and no one in the box, which is infuriating! 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Nelly78

[RandomGuy.]

Been confirmed that Devante Coles swinging elbow in the box has broken Craig Conways nose.

[PauloPerth]

40 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Been confirmed that Devante Coles swinging elbow in the box has broken Craig Conways nose.

Motherwell gonna Motherwell.