19/20 Scottish Cup Final - Heart of Midlothian v Celtic

[Jinky67]

57 minutes ago, MS RR said:

Well I'd love to know where you've pulled those figures from haha. In 2018 Celtic's turnover was more than the 11 Scottish Premiership clubs combined, including Rangers. Celtic's revenue was 3 times higher than the SPFL league revenues in 2018. 

You aren't seriously going to suggest that Juventus and Bayern Munich have a revenue which is greater than all Italian teams or all German teams combined? 

There is no comparable country to Scotland. You can point out disparities in finances in every country but none will match the sheer inequality in resources in Scotland. 

That is why your domestic success is meaningless. This has been the first year you've got a proper competitive challenge and you're now 16-points behind. 

No of course I wouldn’t suggest that, the notion is ridiculous for the simple fact both of those leagues have significantly more clubs than ours does 

But don’t deviate from your point which was the financial advantage we have over our competitors. We are competing with Rangers and Rangers alone for this league and the advantage we have over them is no higher than the advantage held by Juve and Bayern over their nearest competitor

In fact Bayern’s turnover is higher than that of Leverkusen, Dortmund and Leipzig combined form18/19 who were their closest competitors

Juventus is higher that of Inter, Napoli and Atalanta combined who were their closest competitors 

All of these leagues are dominated by 1 team currently because they have significantly deeper pockets than the rest and yet none of them, well you know what I’m going to say 

[Jinky67]

11 minutes ago, MS RR said:

Dortmund, RB Leipzig, B Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are hardly pushovers. They offer more competition to Bayern than Hibs and Aberdeen offer Celtic. 

It is very difficult to challenge PSG but Monaco won the league in 2017. Lyon and Marseille are big clubs as well. 

You can kid yourself on as much as you like, the FACTS are there, Celtic have had no competition to win 9 in a row. Rangers have only just come back to prominence and are blowing Celtic away. 

Which explains why Bayern cantered their league by 13 points last season despite sacking a manger in November and being in 5th position at the time of doing so. They were run close in 17/18 but apart from that they have been winning their league by 15-20 points almost every season because of their significant resource advantages

And Rangers were ahead of Celtic and competitive at this stage last season also. So no this isn’t the first competitive season we have had in the 9 in a row run

But to get so bent out of shape trying to prove how meaningless it is to you is also a bit meaningless, I’m always curious about individuals who are so quick to piss on the achievements of others despite it meaning nothing as you so suggest. It would possibly suggest it indeed does matter to you ..... like it does to me for different reasons 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Jinky67

[MS RR]

7 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

No of course I wouldn’t suggest that, the notion is ridiculous for the simple fact both of those leagues have significantly more clubs than ours does 

But don’t deviate from your point which was the financial advantage we have over our competitors. We are competing with Rangers and Rangers alone for this league and the advantage we have over them is no higher than the advantage held by Juve and Bayern over their nearest competitor

In fact Bayern’s turnover is higher than that of Leverkusen, Dortmund and Leipzig combined form18/19 who were their closest competitors

Juventus is higher that of Inter, Napoli and Atalanta combined who were their closest competitors 

All of these leagues are dominated by 1 team currently because they have significantly deeper pockets than the rest and yet none of them, well you know what I’m going to say 

But Rangers weren't in the league for 4 seasons, and when they returned they were a shambles. The financial disparity between Celtic and Aberdeen, who were your main competitors, was far greater than any 1st and 2nd placed team anywhere in Europe. You can now argue you have a rival which is closer in financial strength to Celtic, the difference between Rangers and Celtic is genuinely comparable to other European countries. 

You can't ignore that you had absolutely no competition for the years you won the league as part of the 9 in a row. In Italy and Germany it wasn't as much of a fact that they would win the league as Christmas will be on the 25th December. But in Scotland, Celtic were guaranteed to win before a ball had been kicked. 

[Jinky67]

13 minutes ago, MS RR said:

But Rangers weren't in the league for 4 seasons, and when they returned they were a shambles. The financial disparity between Celtic and Aberdeen, who were your main competitors, was far greater than any 1st and 2nd placed team anywhere in Europe. You can now argue you have a rival which is closer in financial strength to Celtic, the difference between Rangers and Celtic is genuinely comparable to other European countries. 

You can't ignore that you had absolutely no competition for the years you won the league as part of the 9 in a row. In Italy and Germany it wasn't as much of a fact that they would win the league as Christmas will be on the 25th December. But in Scotland, Celtic were guaranteed to win before a ball had been kicked. 

To win the league yes. But this isn’t just about the league though is it? This is about winning the league and every other domestic competition for 4 seasons in a row.

Rangers who you seem to be quite keen to big up have just shown you just how hard it is to win a cup after blowing their biggest opportunity since they came back up despite being in their best form in decades. That’s just how hard it can be.

Celtic never slipped up once, in 4 consecutive years. 36 domestic cup games won in a row which is equivalent to going a full season winning every game which has never been done ever.

Has a team ever won their domestic league by winning all 36 games? Because that’s what our cup run is comparable to

Edited December 21, 2020 by Jinky67

[Tony Wonder]

11 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Has a team ever won their domestic league by winning all 36 games? Because that’s what our cup run is comparable to

Do you get to play 18 games against lower league teams in your domestic league like?  I'm sure it's there or thereabouts in terms of who you've faced in those runs.  It's a good achievement, no doubt, but it's in no way comparable to winning every league game in a season.

[MS RR]

13 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

To win the league yes. But this isn’t just about the league though is it? This is about winning the league and every other domestic competition for 4 seasons in a row.

Rangers who you seem to be quite keen to big up have just shown you just how hard it is to win a cup after blowing their biggest opportunity since they came back up despite being in their best form in decades. That’s just how hard it can be.

Celtic never slipped up once, in 4 consecutive years. 36 domestic cup games won in a row which is equivalent to going a full season winning every game which has never been done ever.

Has a team ever won their domestic league by winning all 36 games? Because that’s what our cup run is comparable to

Haha typical Old Firm fan, you criticise their club and they accuse you of supporting the other side. I dislike Sevco as much as Celtic, believe me. 

It's not easy to win 36 consecutive cup games, but if I was to pin-point any country in Europe where that would be most likely it would be Scotland, because there is no legitimate opposition to Celtic. 

[ahemps]

47 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Who else can currently win the Bundesliga? Who else can currently win Ligue 1.

 I know what you are saying and I take your point. Is this how you want football to be though? Do you not want genuine competition?

Can any Old Firm on here remember the 80's? I was too young to remember it but there were 4 different league winners and Hearts could have won it but they blew it on the last day. I believe Celtic and Rangers had low spells during this decade but still won the majority of domestic trophies. Was that a more enjoyable footballing time? Was it a more interesting period and does it not make winning more satisfying overcoming opponents who can genuinely challenge you?

[Green Day]

This thread now.................

[Gus Setsniffer]

1 hour ago, MS RR said:

Well I'd love to know where you've pulled those figures from haha. In 2018 Celtic's turnover was more than the 11 Scottish Premiership clubs combined, including Rangers. Celtic's revenue was 3 times higher than the SPFL league revenues in 2018. 

You aren't seriously going to suggest that Juventus and Bayern Munich have a revenue which is greater than all Italian teams or all German teams combined? 

There is no comparable country to Scotland. You can point out disparities in finances in every country but none will match the sheer inequality in resources in Scotland. 

That is why your domestic success is meaningless. This has been the first year you've got a proper competitive challenge and you're now 16-points behind. 

Big Team Found.

[HibsFan]

3 hours ago, Jinky67 said:

Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some 

Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison.

So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. 

The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. 

Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par to what Celtic have over Rangers.

To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finished only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic in the past 9 seasons? ) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1.

And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever.

The difference in the quality of player that can be bought by Bayern, PSG, Juventus and by the teams who finished 2nd-4th is less of a gap than between Celtic and Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts etc. But you know that.

This is what is routinely overlooked. Clubs like Dortmund, Lyon etc are still at a level in elite football where, even if they're not the richest club in the country, you still have access to the pool of the, say, top 500 players in the world. And as such those players can help to bridge the gap between you and Bayern/PSG/Juventus in one-off matches like cup ties.

The difference is that Celtic (and in the last couple of seasons, sadly Rangers again) can afford players that the rest of Scotland has no chance of signing. Not even purely in financial terms, but in terms of the club's size etc.

And that is how the cards are stacked in your favour. To deny otherwise is embarrassing. Twelve successive trophies is not particularly impressive.

Apart from the last four, which you left in the hands of a fat ginger slob with little-to-no tactical nous.

Edited December 21, 2020 by HibsFan

[AberdeenHibee]

[Jinky67]

57 minutes ago, MS RR said:

Haha typical Old Firm fan, you criticise their club and they accuse you of supporting the other side. I dislike Sevco as much as Celtic, believe me. 

It's not easy to win 36 consecutive cup games, but if I was to pin-point any country in Europe where that would be most likely it would be Scotland, because there is no legitimate opposition to Celtic. 

I didn’t accuse you of supporting them, I said you were bigging them up there is a discernible difference. 

So you agree it’s not easy to win 36 consecutive cup games therefore the achievement has some meaning? 

I’m glad we got there in the end 

 

[Jinky67]

58 minutes ago, ahemps said:

 I know what you are saying and I take your point. Is this how you want football to be though? Do you not want genuine competition?

Can any Old Firm on here remember the 80's? I was too young to remember it but there were 4 different league winners and Hearts could have won it but they blew it on the last day. I believe Celtic and Rangers had low spells during this decade but still won the majority of domestic trophies. Was that a more enjoyable footballing time? Was it a more interesting period and does it not make winning more satisfying overcoming opponents who can genuinely challenge you?

Of course I want competition however where is that coming from in the near future and what sort of reform would it take to get there? It would take us to leave which doesn’t look likely to create a more competitive Scottish game or ? I genuinely don’t know what the solution could be 

And yes I remember the 80’s I remember the 90’s more though which is why I’m enjoying this small period in our history as I remember very well what it was like to win f**k all 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Jinky67

[Jinky67]

1 hour ago, Tony Wonder said:

Do you get to play 18 games against lower league teams in your domestic league like?  I'm sure it's there or thereabouts in terms of who you've faced in those runs.  It's a good achievement, no doubt, but it's in no way comparable to winning every league game in a season.

We played teams outwith our division on 10 occasions I’m sure assuming Dundee were in the top flight in 17/18 which I’m sure they were 

[Henrik's tongue]

5 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Bollocks - it's not an achievement worthy of even being described that way.

It's actually embarrassing for our game.  I'm not going to claim that it makes us a laughing stock because unlike the coefficient wankers, I recognise that nobody elsewhere takes much notice, although it was a bit cringey seeing the story covered on the UK news.

I don't mean that it's embarrassing that no other club challenged them; I mean that it's embarrassing that we've allowed the distribution of resources in our game to reach a stage where such a thing happens.

An utterly hollow, meaningless and empty feat that even those celebrating can only derive relief, as opposed to joy, from.

 

 

Imagine if that was all your club could deliver.  

The horror! The horror!

Bah Humbug!

[ahemps]

50 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Of course I want competition however where is that coming from in the near future and what sort of reform would it take to get there? It would take us to leave which doesn’t look likely to create a more competitive Scottish game or ? I genuinely don’t know what the solution could be 

And yes I remember the 80’s I remember the 90’s more though which is why I’m enjoying this small period in our history as I remember very well what it was like to win f**k all 

You can remember what it was like not to win stuff????? What is the longest spell in your life that Celtic haven't won a trophy? 

[ahemps]

1 hour ago, Jinky67 said:

Of course I want competition however where is that coming from in the near future and what sort of reform would it take to get there? It would take us to leave which doesn’t look likely to create a more competitive Scottish game or ? I genuinely don’t know what the solution could be 

I agree it is extremely complex in how to fix it and it will take the big sides having to give up some of their advantage which will never happen or the smaller sides realise that they make up the largest portion of clubs and they demand that there is a fairer distribution of wealth which I also doubt will happen as football clubs are incapable of acting for anyone other than themselves. I think we are at a stage where the old firm are too big now and I am happy to admit that. I think UEFA should allow cross border leagues to happen and allow teams to find their level. A Scottish league without the old firm would be competitive in my view. Kilmarnock and Motherwell have finished 3rd recently while Hearts have been relegated, take away the old firm from the league you can easily see that all the other sides can finish anywhere in the league in any given season.

[kingjoey]

8 hours ago, Romeo said:

He's played 3 games for Celtic and has more Scottish cups wins than Aberdeen football club have had in the last 30 years.

Unlucky.

That’s very true, and I’m sure that you’re well pleased with your witty reply. However, that doesn’t change the fact that he’s fairly shite.

[MS RR]

2 hours ago, Jinky67 said:

I didn’t accuse you of supporting them, I said you were bigging them up there is a discernible difference. 

So you agree it’s not easy to win 36 consecutive cup games therefore the achievement has some meaning? 

I’m glad we got there in the end 

 

It's not easy but it's not far from that, so basically not a big achievement 

[kingjoey]

6 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Very strange post,Hazard will never forget the saves he made to win the cup it's a Tony watt moment.
It's up to him to keep the jersey Celtic just gave him a new contract,hes 22 years old FFS hes got at least another 15 years in the game.
It's strange you focus on the mistakes of a keeper rather than the saves he made during the game,Joe Lewis is a good keeper but he has made mistakes this season.
My take on the game yesterday was brilliant, the first half was men against boys it looked like a massive gap between levels an absolute canter.
Credit to the tarts for the second half didn't think they had that performance in them maybe Celtic came off it a bit  but the tarts had a feck it attitude.
Edouard  had 3 decent chances to finish the game apart from the penalty,Griffiths had his moment and Hazard should've punched the ball away for the tarts third.
Aidy White was hearts best player on the day but if you're looking for a MOTM It's got to be Hazard.

You see, that’s what I was getting at. According to that article on the BBC was very much him making himself out to be the hero and that he sees himself to be playing for Celtic week in, week out. There’s no getting away from the fact that in the end he was the hero because he saved two poor penalties. But the test of a goalkeeper is surely what he does in the course of an actual match, not a penalty shootout. He had four blunders that I can remember, coming to the edge of his box to clear from Naismith and missing it, not holding a straightforward shot, being caught out for the second goal and jumping for the ball at the third goal with his arms by his side. I don’t wish him any Ill will, but can’t see him being selected as number one keeper for the team with by far and away the highest budget in the league. If you think that he’s good enough for that, fair enough.