Genuine Hibs Fan Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said: Tbf if it was Hibs I'd be pissing myself. Any team against either arse cheek I'd want to win, with the exception of Hibs, you just don't want them to win trophies. Aye exactly, we all hate the old firm but no you don't want your rivals winning trophies. There probably are circumstances I would have been happy enough with a hearts win but not when they've beat us in hilarious fashion in the semi . Plus the "narrative" yesterday with the last 12 months for Hearts, potentially coming from behind to win in dramatic fashion, would have been pretty unbearable (the Zaliukas side of the narrative aside anyway, would have been fitting from that point of view). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szamo's_Ammo Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 The cup is meaningless for Celtic, as illustrated by their fans turning up outside Parkhead to either "celebrate" or protest depending on the result. It is all for show with no real substance for most, if not all, of them. If Dundee were ever in a cup final (no laughing at the back) against Celtic or Sevco I think I would want them to lose. They still talk about that time they won a corner at Tannadice so God knows what it would be like if they actually won something! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Aye exactly, we all hate the old firm but no you don't want your rivals winning trophies.In 2016 I took the only sensible option and listened to England vs Sri Lanka on Test Match Special 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: In 2016 I took the only sensible option and listened to England vs Sri Lanka on Test Match Special No, the correct answer is you should have been graciously applauding as your city rivals won the Scottish Cup for the first time in well over a century as at least it wasn't Rangers. Sorry 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, MS RR said: Yes, my opinion is driven by the facts. It is a matter of fact that the financial disparity between Celtic and the rest of Scottish teams is far greater than the difference between Bayern Munich and the rest of German teams, or Juventus and the rest of Italian teams. Also, Monaco beat PSG to the league title in 2017. If Bayern win the league by 13 points against the likes of Dortmund then they have been outstanding. Celtic should've won the league by a distance in the years when Rangers weren't in the premiership. Even when rangers were promoted they were rotten and offered no competition. In Brendan's last year you only beat Aberdeen by 9-points . If Celtic don't win the league by a distance then it's not an achievement. In short, whatever way you look at it Celtic's success is meaningless. Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison. So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par to what Celtic have over Rangers. To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finished only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic in the past 9 seasons? ) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1. And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever. Are there anymore myths you would like me to bust? Anyway you can continue to post how meaningless it may be and that’s your opinion and that is perfect acceptable but what it definitely isn’t is driven by facts. Edited December 21, 2020 by Jinky67 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison. So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par than what Celtic have over Rangers. To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finalised only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic? [emoji848]) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1. And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever. Are there anymore myths you would like me to bust? Anyway you can continue to post how meaningless it may be and that’s is your opinion and that is perfect acceptable but what it definitely isn’t is driven by facts That's a headshot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said: if you're looking for a MOTM It's got to be Hazard. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, G51 said: We shouldn't be in a situation where a team like Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs can't ever make a realistic run at a title. This is where I disagree with you there is very little disparity for 30 league games for these teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, G51 said: I've made loads of arguments that we need more centralisation of contracts within the SPFL to allow for a more even distribution of resources. I'm completely in favour of that, because a more competitive league is good for everyone in the long term. We shouldn't be in a situation where a team like Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs can't ever make a realistic run at a title. But it's churlish to deny that this is a good achievement, because it is. Cup runs require a lot of luck - single games of football are so unpredictable, with high levels of variance. To have gone so many games without defeat is an impressive achievement. It's not like Celtic are beating amateur teams to do this. I agree to an extent, but given that the majority of Rangers and Celtic's income is generated from Season Ticket sales and European income, how could we address this? I would imagine that TV money and SPFL Prize money make up a fraction of their turnover so it's unlikely to make any huge difference if the SPFL alter the resource distribution. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MS RR Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison. So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par to what Celtic have over Rangers. To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finished only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic in the past 9 seasons? ) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1. And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever. Are there anymore myths you would like me to bust? Anyway you can continue to post how meaningless it may be and that’s your opinion and that is perfect acceptable but what it definitely isn’t is driven by facts. Well I'd love to know where you've pulled those figures from haha. In 2018 Celtic's turnover was more than the 11 Scottish Premiership clubs combined, including Rangers. Celtic's revenue was 3 times higher than the SPFL league revenues in 2018. You aren't seriously going to suggest that Juventus and Bayern Munich have a revenue which is greater than all Italian teams or all German teams combined? There is no comparable country to Scotland. You can point out disparities in finances in every country but none will match the sheer inequality in resources in Scotland. That is why your domestic success is meaningless. This has been the first year you've got a proper competitive challenge and you're now 16-points behind. Edited December 21, 2020 by MS RR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Jinky67 said: Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison. So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par to what Celtic have over Rangers. To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finished only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic in the past 9 seasons? ) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1. And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever. Are there anymore myths you would like me to bust? Anyway you can continue to post how meaningless it may be and that’s your opinion and that is perfect acceptable but what it definitely isn’t is driven by facts. You are making this up. Scotland has the biggest financial gap in Europe. No other league in Europe has a top v bottom ratio of 21.76:1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Jinky67 said: Driven by facts is it? Let me give you some Lets go back to 2019 since it mitigates the impact of the current pandemic to offer a more true comparison. So in season 2018/19 the difference in turnover between Bayern Munich and the team who finished 2nd which in this case is Dortmund was 35%. If you then look at the gap to the likes of Schalke or Leipzig that gap is then up to 65%. The same season the difference between Celtic and the team finishing 2nd which is Rangers is also around 35% and well you know the rest, the gap widens the further down the league you go and funnily enough in way very similar to the Bundesliga. Obviously those revenues fluctuate year on year however the financial advantage Bayern have is on par to what Celtic have over Rangers. To labour this point further Juve also have about a 35% gap to Inter Milan currently whose revenues have increased recently by around 25%. That gap then increases to around 84%!!!! over Atalanta who finished only 5 points behind Juve in 18/19. That 84% revenue gap is also larger than the revenue gap between Celtic and Aberdeen to draw that comparison for the same season (have Aberdeen ever gotten as close as 5 points to Celtic in the past 9 seasons? ) and let’s not get started on the disparity between PSG and the rest of Ligue 1. And despite Juve, Bayern and PSG having a similar or indeed larger financial advantage than Celtic as I’ve just shown none of them have won 12 domestic trophies on the bounce......ever. Are there anymore myths you would like me to bust? Anyway you can continue to post how meaningless it may be and that’s your opinion and that is perfect acceptable but what it definitely isn’t is driven by facts. Here is more facts for you, only Portugal comes close to financial disparity in Europe but this is counting Aberdeen in a top 3 where in Portugal it is Benfica, Sporting and Porto. By UEFA's own financial reports it is recognised that it is extremely unlikely that anyone else can win the Scottish league. Celtic and Rangers are a pair of middle weight boxers going around beating up bantamweights and telling everyone how tough they are although the only people who believe it are themselves. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, MS RR said: That is why your domestic success is meaningless. This has been the first year you've got a proper competitive challenge and you're now 16-points behind. You're a bit of a banger and haven't got a scooby M8, the Celtic side had 3 youth players yesterday. Plus Ajer,Frimpong,Turnbull and Eddie all under 23. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, AJF said: I agree to an extent, but given that the majority of Rangers and Celtic's income is generated from Season Ticket sales and European income, how could we address this? I would imagine that TV money and SPFL Prize money make up a fraction of their turnover so it's unlikely to make any huge difference if the SPFL alter the resource distribution. A couple of ways: Firstly, we centralise as many contracts as possible and split the revenues from them equally. The broadcasting contract is equalised. There is no difference in your prize money whether you come 1st or 12th. In addition, you give merchandising rights over to the league. For every item sold, the majority of the profit is retained in the league and split equally among all clubs. A minority percentage then goes to the club for whom the merchandise was sold for (i.e. for a Rangers duck, 75% of the profit from that goes to the SPFL and is split among all clubs, while 25% goes to Rangers). This is how merchandising works in American sports leagues - you don't buy your New York Giants jersey from the Giants shop, you buy it from the NFL shop. Teams no longer have an individual shirt manufacturer - someone takes over the contract for producing shirts for the whole league. All sponsorship contracts are centralised through the league. The next bit is the really radical bit: a significant percentage of European prize money is split across all teams. I'm sure there are smarter people out there with better ideas than that, but those are just some to start it off. Course you'd need to completely revamp the SPFL to do this - you can't rely on Neil Doncaster to oversee any of this. You'd need to professionalise the league's executive body. But making decisions in the interest of the league as a whole rather than the interest of individual clubs has the potential to benefit everyone. Edited December 21, 2020 by G51 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, G51 said: A couple of ways: Firstly, we centralise as many contracts as possible and split the revenues from them equally. The broadcasting contract is equalised. There is no difference in your prize money whether you come 1st or 12th. In addition, you give merchandising rights over to the league. For every item sold, the majority of the profit is retained in the league and split equally among all clubs. A minority percentage then goes to the club for whom the merchandise was sold for (i.e. for a Rangers duck, 75% of the profit from that goes to the SPFL and is split among all clubs, while 25% goes to Rangers). This is how merchandising works in American sports leagues - you don't buy your New York Giants jersey from the Giants shop, you buy it from the NFL shop. Teams no longer have an individual shirt manufacturer - someone takes over the contract for producing shirts for the whole league. All sponsorship contracts are centralised through the league. The next bit is the really radical bit: a significant percentage of European prize money is split across all teams. I'm sure there are smarter people out there with better ideas than that, but those are just some to start it off. Course you'd need to completely revamp the SPFL to do this - you can't rely on Neil Doncaster to oversee any of this. You'd need to professionalise the league's executive body. But making decisions in the interest of the league as a whole rather than the interest of individual clubs has the potential to benefit everyone. This sounds great and I like your ideas. Probably the biggest issue is the European solidarity payments, especially in lesser European leagues where 1 good season and qualification to the group stages can net you sums of money that put you miles ahead of your domestic competition. The solidarity payments to the leagues used to be 25% but I'm sure Barca, Juve etc. complained about this and it was dropped to 8%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MS RR Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 32 minutes ago, ahemps said: Here is more facts for you, only Portugal comes close to financial disparity in Europe but this is counting Aberdeen in a top 3 where in Portugal it is Benfica, Sporting and Porto. By UEFA's own financial reports it is recognised that it is extremely unlikely that anyone else can win the Scottish league. Celtic and Rangers are a pair of middle weight boxers going around beating up bantamweights and telling everyone how tough they are although the only people who believe it are themselves. It's classic Celtic this, they're never ones to acknowledge the facts. Their "facts" are usually always wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenHibee Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Jambottled it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 36 minutes ago, ahemps said: Here is more facts for you, only Portugal comes close to financial disparity in Europe but this is counting Aberdeen in a top 3 where in Portugal it is Benfica, Sporting and Porto. By UEFA's own financial reports it is recognised that it is extremely unlikely that anyone else can win the Scottish league. Celtic and Rangers are a pair of middle weight boxers going around beating up bantamweights and telling everyone how tough they are although the only people who believe it are themselves. Who else can currently win the Bundesliga? Who else can currently win Ligue 1. The point was not the disparity between top v bottom but the disparity between us and our nearest viable competitors which let’s be honest is Rangers and Rangers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 No, the correct answer is you should have been graciously applauding as your city rivals won the Scottish Cup for the first time in well over a century as at least it wasn't Rangers. SorryAnd missed Jimmy Anderson’s 10 wicket haul at Headingley?Are you crazy? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MS RR Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: Who else can currently win the Bundesliga? Who else can currently win Ligue 1. The point was not the disparity between top v bottom but the disparity between us and our nearest viable competitors which let’s be honest is Rangers and Rangers Dortmund, RB Leipzig, B Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are hardly pushovers. They offer more competition to Bayern than Hibs and Aberdeen offer Celtic. It is very difficult to challenge PSG but Monaco won the league in 2017. Lyon and Marseille are big clubs as well. You can kid yourself on as much as you like, the FACTS are there, Celtic have had no competition to win 9 in a row. Rangers have only just come back to prominence and are blowing Celtic away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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