Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2020-21

[Stewie Griffin]

23 minutes ago, lowenan said:

I’m sure Berwick will improve as their time in the SLFL grows.

Doubling down in my admiration of your faith in them

[Burnieman]

This is pre-WOSFL, 2018. The "decided by the Boards of the three leagues"  refers to LL, EoS and SoS. Is the principle still the same now that the WoS has been added, or is relegation now automatically to the Tier 6 league determined by their location?

FWF has clarified, rules basically remain unchanged. The leagues decide where a relegated club goes, and the clubs themselves will have a say in that, I believe they nominate or express a preference.

[Burnieman]

I see where you're coming from but until such time they will go tier 6 SoSFL. 
I'm sure they'd get plenty notice for a re-aligned league but then again it is Scottish fitba we're talking about.
Pity Dalbeattie and Gretna fans are few and far between on here now. There used to be some decent (Gretna especially) fans input on here.
Who'd have thought the LL would ever cause such a fuss ?
 

I don't think they will, they'd be mad to if they're looking after their long term future. As Ivo points out, there's nothing to be gained in such a weak league. Yes, a much easier shot at the LL play-offs, but up against 2 tough teams they'll rarely beat and at what price longer term playing amateur teams on a weekly basis.

[GordonS]

12 hours ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

It’s not the LL at fault, it’s just slack / last minute / Boris Johnson type thinking. Lets just set it up and nit pick / woryy about exceptional cases later.

If we'd waited until we got a fully coherent non-league structure it would never have happened at all. We've only got this far by evolution, and by groups of clubs pioneering their own paths. When the LL was being set up, there was no point wasting time and effort, and potentially dividing members, on what they should do in the theoretical possibility any of the West Juniors wanted to join. 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

If we'd waited until we got a fully coherent non-league structure it would never have happened at all. We've only got this far by evolution, and by groups of clubs pioneering their own paths. When the LL was being set up, there was no point wasting time and effort, and potentially dividing members, on what they should do in the theoretical possibility any of the West Juniors wanted to join. 

The one thing that's been apparent in all this is that the SFA aren't going to disrupt existing leagues in any dramatic way. Certainly not force them to do anything. The Lowland League idea seemed to be more of a top down / soft power approach.

The Lowland League would have taken up members from across the existing 4 leagues. The 4 leagues below would have had to reshuffle their leagues to make up for the loss of members, and hopefully that would have led to a more unified format.

 

[Ginaro]

17 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

It's bizarre that the SoSL see being moved down the pyramid as losing face but not the fact that if they'd awarded the championship last season, it would have been won by Stranraer Reserves.

Stranraer won it the season before last so they obviously don't see a problem with that. As long as they are competitive there's a decent chance of no licensed champion from the SOS (in 2018-19 the top 8 were unlicensed!)

11 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

One future solution may be for the EoS (North, South) and WoS (Central, Ayrshire) to districtise at Tier 8, with SoS being added at that level as a District League, independent of the WoS though. With the Top 2-4 SoS clubs being offered slots at T6-7 in the WoS the season of the move, in order to be fair to clubs that are genuinely interested in the pyramid.

Maybe that's too sensible for everyone?

I agree, tier 8 would be the best place to regionalise the EOS and WOS further - but as I've been reminded before, the West Region decided to go to 4x16 regionwide divisions only a couple of seasons ago. Though maybe post-COVID the 35+ clubs at tier 8/9 will think it might be better with more local games.

[Gordon EF]

22 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Stranraer won it the season before last so they obviously don't see a problem with that. As long as they are competitive there's a decent chance of no licensed champion from the SOS (in 2018-19 the top 8 were unlicensed!)

Aye but I mean objectively, there's no 'prestige' to being at tier 6 now that the pyramid has expanded and absolutely everybody knows that the SoSL is absolutely nowhere near the level of the other two tier 6 leagues.

For the sake of their own members and potential members, they should look to become a regional league within the WoSFL structure. The clubs who want to effectively keep playing a D&G district league can keep doing so and the bigger clubs who have bigger ambitions can't get trapped in a poor league with little chance of progression to a level that suits them better.

22 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I agree, tier 8 would be the best place to regionalise the EOS and WOS further - but as I've been reminded before, the West Region decided to go to 4x16 regionwide divisions only a couple of seasons ago. Though maybe post-COVID the 35+ clubs at tier 8/9 will think it might be better with more local games.

Agreed. If it's what clubs wanted, you could easily split the current East conferences quite nicely into an Edinburgh / Lothians / Borders (South) region and a Fife / East Central Lowlands (North) region.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Gordon EF

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

If we'd waited until we got a fully coherent non-league structure it would never have happened at all. We've only got this far by evolution, and by groups of clubs pioneering their own paths. When the LL was being set up, there was no point wasting time and effort, and potentially dividing members, on what they should do in the theoretical possibility any of the West Juniors wanted to join. 

 

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The one thing that's been apparent in all this is that the SFA aren't going to disrupt existing leagues in any dramatic way. Certainly not force them to do anything. The Lowland League idea seemed to be more of a top down / soft power approach.

The Lowland League would have taken up members from across the existing 4 leagues. The 4 leagues below would have had to reshuffle their leagues to make up for the loss of members, and hopefully that would have led to a more unified format.

 

I've said before the LL was rushed because the chairman of Cove was desperate for them to get into the SPFL.

His plan obviously worked leaving the Lowlands to fight out a pyramid among themselves which if you're an outsider looking in appears to be happening now. Well it does on here at least.

Spartans if I recall were also heavily involved in the setting up of the LL but looks like they have missed the boat now with it becoming more and more competitive by the year. 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

 

I've said before the LL was rushed because the chairman of Cove was desperate for them to get into the SPFL.

His plan obviously worked leaving the Lowlands to fight out a pyramid among themselves which if you're an outsider looking in appears to be happening now. Well it does on here at least.

Spartans if I recall were also heavily involved in the setting up of the LL but looks like they have missed the boat now with it becoming more and more competitive by the year. 

The reason it felt rushed was because the SPL/SFL merger was actually happening. Not due to negotiations and agreement, but because Rangers went bust and there was seen as a need for it. It also meant the pauper SFL clubs weren't as keen introducing a relegation spot now they were getting paid and would have happily dropped the pyramid element given the chance to nitpick the SPFL merger.

Quote

League Restructuring and a Pyramid Structure for Scottish Football

At its meeting on 29th September,2011, the Professional Game Board agreed a five point plan to formally develop proposals for League restructuring: -

• The merger of the Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League to create a single league structure

• An all through distribution model covering all 42 league clubs

• The creation of an additional relegation / promotion place between the top division and the division below it

• Enhanced parachute payments to soften the financial blow of relegation for clubs relegated out of the top division

• A 'pyramid structure' that will open up access to SFL Division Three from below

Subsequent discussion by the Scottish FA Board of Directors, related to point 5 above, has reached broad consensus on the following "pyramid principles" -

 

• The creation of a new Scottish FA "Highland" and "Lowland" Super League structure immediately below the SFL Third Division, comprising clubs from the existing structures of Scottish Highland Football League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League and Scottish Junior FA

• Maintenance of the existing SHFL, ESL, SSL and SJFA League structures, immediately below the dual Super Leagues, with provision for existing Leagues to open membership to clubs within the Scottish Amateur FA

• Promotion and relegation based upon sporting merit and the achievement of "club" standards as defined by National Club Licensing and the Scottish FA Quality Mark system

ln order to formally progress the development of the key principles above, the Professional Game Board is requested to approve the following actions: -

 

• The commencement of formal consultation between the Scottish FA, SPL, SFL, Scottish Highland Football League, the East of Scotland League, the South of Scotland League and Scottish Junior FA regarding the composition and launch of a new dual "Super League" structure with effect from season 2014-15 (with club applications being sought from 2013-14)

• An internal review of the National Club Licensing and Scottish FA Quality Mark services and resource supporting the proposed pyramid structure

• The completion of a signed "Memorandum of Understanding" by all relevant League bodies and stakeholders giving formal commitment to the agreed principles of the new Pyramid Structure for Scottish Football

Stewart M. Regan
Chief Executive
October,2011

 

[newcastle broon]

Cove and Spartans were still heavily involved in it though. 

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Cove and Spartans were still heavily involved in it though. 

As Alan McRae was on the SFA Board, PGB, and NPGB at the time it's easy to understand how he can be seen as instigating things.

What exactly did Spartans do?

[newcastle broon]

42 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As Alan McRae was on the SFA Board, PGB, and NPGB at the time it's easy to understand how he can be seen as instigating things.

What exactly did Spartans do?

I thought the Spartans chairman was all over it at the time.I certainly recall him in the papers. Maybes I'm mistaken. 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

I thought the Spartans chairman was all over it at the time.I certainly recall him in the papers. Maybes I'm mistaken. 

I doubt you're mistaking if that's all you're aware of. It's hardly surprising since getting their ground in order that they were publicly supportive of a pyramid system. They would have seen the pros of that outweighing any cons. It's not like SFL clubs were going bust every year to create vacancies.

I'm just not sure that counts as being heavily involved in the creation of the league.

[newcastle broon]

26 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I doubt you're mistaking if that's all you're aware of. It's hardly surprising since getting their ground in order that they were publicly supportive of a pyramid system. They would have seen the pros of that outweighing any cons. It's not like SFL clubs were going bust every year to create vacancies.

I'm just not sure that counts as being heavily involved in the creation of the league.

Fair enough 1/2 is nae a bad shout then.

Cove most certainly a massive influence in the founding of the league though. 

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Fair enough 1/2 is nae a bad shout then.

Cove most certainly a massive influence in the founding of the league though. 

I'm just not entirely sure why certain clubs get hit with a stick over creating the pyramid. I remember Gordon Smith going on about Highland and Lowland Leagues when he was Chief Exec. Then you get the McLeish Report in 2010. Regan then starts implementing some of those changes following approval at the SFA AGM in 2011. One of those changes was the introduction of Highland / Lowland leagues beneath a new unified national league structure.

People then seem some how surprised that the clubs that had repeatedly tried to get into the SFL whenever a vacancy would arise were supportive of the idea, regardless of what it would look like initially.

The flip side of that blinkered enthusiasm for the idea, was the SJFA approach of asking for nothing to change for them while needing a multiple year delay. 

[newcastle broon]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm just not entirely sure why certain clubs get hit with a stick over creating the pyramid. I remember Gordon Smith going on about Highland and Lowland Leagues when he was Chief Exec. Then you get the McLeish Report in 2010. Regan then starts implementing some of those changes following approval at the SFA AGM in 2011. One of those changes was the introduction of Highland / Lowland leagues beneath a new unified national league structure.

People then seem some how surprised that the clubs that had repeatedly tried to get into the SFL whenever a vacancy would arise were supportive of the idea, regardless of what it would look like initially.

The flip side of that blinkered enthusiasm for the idea, was the SJFA approach of asking for nothing to change for them while needing a multiple year delay. 

Was nae hitting them wi a stick just was an observation as other than a place being created there was nowhere Cove could go so pushing for a LL wi the winners playing off would've made sense.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Was nae hitting them wi a stick just was an observation as other than a place being created there was nowhere Cove could go so pushing for a LL wi the winners playing off would've made sense.

The stick's not about you. There's some people that paint the creation of the Lowland League as a conspiracy theory carried out by a cabal of clubs.

[Marshmallo]

What's the bets then? I reckon they'll keep VoL up unless there is a licensed champion from either EoS/SoS AND Brora replace someone in the LL area (eg Albion Rovers or Cowdenbeath).

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

What's the bets then? I reckon they'll keep VoL up unless there is a licensed champion from either EoS/SoS AND Brora replace someone in the LL area (eg Albion Rovers or Cowdenbeath).

The SoS and EoS to declare null and void. Leaving the LL at 17 teams depending on how the SPFL2 Play-off goes. They basically rearranged things the other year to allow for some flexibility due to going to 17.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

Think they'll hold off to see what happens with the colt team reconstruction plan as that could eliminate the need to relegate anyone even with a move back to 16 and a club getting promoted from tier 6. An active playoff lumbering over the immediate horizon might prompt some of the lower half of the LL2 to vote for it so I would assume that's why BrazilianLex thinks there is a carve up unfolding.