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The Beginning of the End


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If they did go with some sort of breakaway superleague of what 16 or so teams someone has to finish last and how long will they put up with that. It would need some sort of mechanism to promote teams and relegate based on results.

I imagine they'd do something along the lines of the very successful basketball Euroleague.
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Guest TheJTS98

I suppose the issue here is what is the long-term viability of each system.

For example, Man Utd fans might have mates who are Everton fans, or Villa fans, or Spurs fans etc and that's really what keeps football interesting.

I have mates who support Motherwell, Accies, Dundee, etc so Hearts playing these teams is interesting. If we were playing Heerenveen in some European League Division 7 (which is where this ends up) why would I care who won?

Has anybody ever asked what match-going fans of Real Madrid are interested in? I don't know. But I don't see this pish having any potential long-term interest. Maybe, but hard to maintain.

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On 22/11/2020 at 14:28, TheJTS98 said:

I have mates who support Motherwell, Accies, Dundee, etc so Hearts playing these teams is interesting. If we were playing Heerenveen in some European League Division 7 (which is where this ends up) why would I care who won?

I don't think this would get to a level 7. I see this initially as a 16-18 team European super league then maybe in a few years a 2nd tier but I think it would stop there as any sort of European super league would want each team to meet certain criteria, things like a minimum 70k stadiums and big revenue potential so clubs like Roma, Marseille, Benfica etc who may miss out on the 1st proposed league could potentially get into the 2nd one. 

Other teams may then look to cross border leagues as UEFA's rule over the club game would be very limited so the old firm can move to England to fill the gap left there. I doubt any other clubs would want to move from a Scottish league and then, in my view, Scotland would have a very interesting and competitive league. A league where the big 3 of Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs could win the league one year but be mid table the next. A league where a Motherwell or Kilmarnock can look to win the league from time to time. It may lose some market appeal and clubs would have to cut their cloth accordingly but the current format of the old firm being so superior financially that it makes the league a 2 horse race for evermore a pointless spectacle to me.

On 22/11/2020 at 14:28, TheJTS98 said:

Has anybody ever asked what match-going fans of Real Madrid are interested in? I don't know. But I don't see this pish having any potential long-term interest. Maybe, but hard to maintain.

These clubs already look at the Champions league as their main seasons objective, Barca have stated they would like the CL to be on Saturdays and La Liga games during the week. I think a league containing PSG, Man Utd, Bayern and Juventus would bring massive appeal to these fans rather than Alaves and Granada every other week. Eventually this league would be a footballing version of the NFL. Stadiums would be full every week, the best players would be there, new rivalry's would be formed. 

Deep down I would like football to remain close to it's traditions but we have super elite clubs now that are getting stronger and more powerful all the time and if the result of that is constant domination from these teams then I would like to see something give and if it be a European super league or cross border leagues then so be it.

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Guest TheJTS98
50 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Deep down I would like football to remain close to it's traditions but we have super elite clubs now that are getting stronger and more powerful all the time

I think the heart of the problem is that, eve with all the tweaks like Champions League etc, football still operate broadly within the structure it did as an amateur or nearly amateur sport in the 19th century.

National leagues were not devised with the kind of staggering inequality we now know in mind. I don't think we pause often enough to consider how stupid it is to have a club of the incomes level of Celtic competing in a round-robin competition with a club of the income level of Ross County. That's not a competition, but we accept it because it's just how things are and we like how things have always been done.

But we're now at the breaking point where that inequality is straining the credibility of national leagues. We're already seeing the same process as the FA Cup saw at the start of its decline. Even in some big countries winning the league carries little weight. That means it's game over pretty soon. The sport in the form we have known it in our lifetimes is on borrowed time. What that means down the ladder, we'll need to wait and see.

I remain unconvinced that this has real long-term legs. But that might just be my lack of imagination. I suppose I can see this becoming a sort of global touring circus.

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Guest TheJTS98

The latest update with the domestic leagues straining against the inevitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/05/european-leagues-voice-concerns-over-champions-league-expansion-plans

When you consider that there are nearly 700 clubs playing in the top divisions alone of UEFA members, it's staggering that football is allowing itself to be pulled apart by around a dozen of them.

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13 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

The latest update with the domestic leagues straining against the inevitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/05/european-leagues-voice-concerns-over-champions-league-expansion-plans

When you consider that there are nearly 700 clubs playing in the top divisions alone of UEFA members, it's staggering that football is allowing itself to be pulled apart by around a dozen of them.

What I find interesting is that the fans of these teams included in the plan (at least the English clubs) that you see on social media don’t appear to be much in favour of it either. 

Seems literally an unwanted money move, crazy.

Edited by Jambomo
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Guest TheJTS98
On 06/02/2021 at 22:26, Jambomo said:

What I find interesting is that the fans of these teams included in the plan (at least the English clubs) that you see on social media don’t appear to be much in favour of it either. 

Seems literally an unwanted money move, crazy.

It's a really bizarre thing.

I just listened to The Price of Football podcast's section on it. Nothing particularly new in it, but it is funny to hear someone say out loud 'These clubs have the aim of removing uncertainty of results' and have it as something that is just common knowledge.

Stop and let that sink in. These clubs want to stop football being competitive. It's incredible that it is considered in any way acceptable by anybody whatsoever. These billionaire p***ks want to ruin our game and they couldn't give a f**k that they're killing it.

Off with their heads!

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I actually think this new proposed Champions League system is much more interesting than the current group stages - assuming they use a Swiss system similar to that in chess to draw the fixtures. It should guarantee more big games earlier in the tournament, and also make the final matchday incredibly dramatic unlike the current tournament. I think whoever is in charge of developing the competition structures at UEFA is absolutely fantastic at their job, given the success they've already had with the Nations League.

The big issue is, of course, how they determine the set of teams who actually enter this group stage, which unfortunately people won't be able to separate from the system itself. I think people are running out of patience a bit with the gradual squeezing out of the mid-ranking clubs in favour of yet more teams from the bigger countries. If those extra places in the group were going to champions of smaller countries then I think this would be the perfect format.

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Guest TheJTS98
1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

I actually think this new proposed Champions League system is much more interesting than the current group stages - assuming they use a Swiss system similar to that in chess to draw the fixtures. It should guarantee more big games earlier in the tournament, and also make the final matchday incredibly dramatic unlike the current tournament. I think whoever is in charge of developing the competition structures at UEFA is absolutely fantastic at their job, given the success they've already had with the Nations League.

The big issue is, of course, how they determine the set of teams who actually enter this group stage, which unfortunately people won't be able to separate from the system itself. I think people are running out of patience a bit with the gradual squeezing out of the mid-ranking clubs in favour of yet more teams from the bigger countries. If those extra places in the group were going to champions of smaller countries then I think this would be the perfect format.

I agree that the actual format of playing games itself is good. It's similar to the strength of a 24-team World Cup being that qualifying doesn't just depend on your group, which in a straight two-teams-qualify system might be over quickly, but brings groups into competition with each other and adds an element of the unknown. Uruguay's final-minute qualification in 1990 springs to mind.

Seems an improvement on the current system where a team could perform well and be eliminated from a tough group with 10 or even 12 points, while a team could qualify from a weak group with 6 or 7. In 2005, Rangers got out of their group with one win and only 7 points, while in 2006, Werder Bremen managed 3 wins and took 10 points - including one win against Chelsea and a draw with Barcelona - but were knocked out.

That side of it is fine. The problem is that the issue you highlight will be skewed as much as possible, either by seeding to make sure that everyone outside the top five countries is there to make up the numbers or by excluding them altogether. And you can bet your baws the financial rewards will reflect that.

Edited by TheJTS98
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I actually think this new proposed Champions League system is much more interesting than the current group stages - assuming they use a Swiss system similar to that in chess to draw the fixtures. It should guarantee more big games earlier in the tournament, and also make the final matchday incredibly dramatic unlike the current tournament. I think whoever is in charge of developing the competition structures at UEFA is absolutely fantastic at their job, given the success they've already had with the Nations League.
The big issue is, of course, how they determine the set of teams who actually enter this group stage, which unfortunately people won't be able to separate from the system itself. I think people are running out of patience a bit with the gradual squeezing out of the mid-ranking clubs in favour of yet more teams from the bigger countries. If those extra places in the group were going to champions of smaller countries then I think this would be the perfect format.
Interesting for TV if using that sort of system, but not exactly great for fans - particularly away fans - if each fixture is going to be announced at fairly short notice.
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Guest TheJTS98
56 minutes ago, true_rover said:
17 hours ago, craigkillie said:
I actually think this new proposed Champions League system is much more interesting than the current group stages - assuming they use a Swiss system similar to that in chess to draw the fixtures. It should guarantee more big games earlier in the tournament, and also make the final matchday incredibly dramatic unlike the current tournament. I think whoever is in charge of developing the competition structures at UEFA is absolutely fantastic at their job, given the success they've already had with the Nations League.
The big issue is, of course, how they determine the set of teams who actually enter this group stage, which unfortunately people won't be able to separate from the system itself. I think people are running out of patience a bit with the gradual squeezing out of the mid-ranking clubs in favour of yet more teams from the bigger countries. If those extra places in the group were going to champions of smaller countries then I think this would be the perfect format.

Interesting for TV if using that sort of system, but not exactly great for fans - particularly away fans - if each fixture is going to be announced at fairly short notice.

Why would that be the case? From what I've heard fixtures would be announced right at the start as they are now.

Only difference is that it's one big league table. You still know who you're going to play and when.

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Guest TheJTS98
4 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:


You can't do that with a Swiss system.

Maybe I've misunderstood it then or it's been mis-reported.

As I understood it, the teams would still be drawn into 'groups' for fixtures and this would be based on a similar kind of seeding to what we have now. The only difference - apart from the number of teams and fixtures - is that everyone goes into one big league table.

A meringue?

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Maybe I've misunderstood it then or it's been mis-reported.
As I understood it, the teams would still be drawn into 'groups' for fixtures and this would be based on a similar kind of seeding to what we have now. The only difference - apart from the number of teams and fixtures - is that everyone goes into one big league table.
A meringue?
Maybe I've misunderstood it then! In a normal Swiss system you usually have initial seedings but after each round winners play winners, losers play losers and those who've drawn also face each other. So you don't know who you'll play in the next set of fixtures until the previous round is completed. It means you can have somewhat accurate standings after a few rounds despite having a field of hundreds. I've not actually read up on this proposal, so perhaps it's some sort of semi-Swiss.
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The end game is probably going to be a USA type European league of 20 elite clubs from the big countries followed by a second tier of 20 teams from the medium sized countries with promotion and relegation between them but a closed shop after those two divisions. Every national league would effectively become what the Yanks call the Minors.

I guess they’d want a team from most countries with a decent sized population to try and ensure maximum interest across Europe, that would be interesting as there’s no way in a 40 team system they’d want both Celtic and Rangers so only one would likely be invited. Could it end up with the big countries getting 2-4 teams and the medium countries just 1? (Celtic may need to relocate to Ireland [emoji23]) I’m assuming the small countries like Malta, Lichtenstein etc with smaller populations will just get ignored as there TV market is too small.




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