Jacksgranda Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 41 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said: I watched a talk last week about a cave in Moray that I'd previously been into, in which children were previously decapitated. Could have been me. what done it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ralstonite said: Personally, I am now ambivalent about the death penalty. I was once in favour of it, then opposed to it for moral and religious reasons, and now I've been reading that it might be justifiable biblically. Quote Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Bring out of the camp the one who cursed, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And speak to the people of Israel, saying, Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death." Leviticus 24:13-16 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Bring out of the camp Just a minute! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Leviticus 24:13-16 Some of the shit that the bible says people should be killed for is barmy (including eating prawns). For anyone to try and use the bible as a method of justifying capital punishment is just bewildering. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralstonite Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Leviticus 24:13-16 Is from the Old Testament, and the Jewish Torah. Unlike Judaism though, Christians believe in the teachings of Jesus who was merciful - indeed He had the humblest of origins, being born in a stable, had no home or possessions and was crucified for our sins. He spent His life healing the sick, He associated with those shunned (lepers) and despised (tax collectors) by society. He instructed us "to turn the other cheek" and to "go the extra mile". When a prostitute was to be stoned, He rescued the lady, instructing those without sin to cast the first stone. Really and truly, Jesus' words should abrogate everything in the Old Testament. Mohammed on the other hand, had four wives, including a child bride (Aisha), was a slave master and trader and led an army which conquered cities and slaughter thousands. Which one did God really send? -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, Ralstonite said: Is from the Old Testament, and the Jewish Torah. Unlike Judaism though, Christians believe in the teachings of Jesus who was merciful - indeed He had the humblest of origins, being born in a stable, had no home or possessions and was crucified for our sins. He spent His life healing the sick, He associated with those shunned (lepers) and despised (tax collectors) by society. He instructed us "to turn the other cheek" and to "go the extra mile". When a prostitute was to be stoned, He rescued the lady, instructing those without sin to cast the first stone. Really and truly, Jesus' words should abrogate everything in the Old Testament. Mohammed on the other hand, had four wives, including a child bride (Aisha), was a slave master and trader and led an army which conquered cities and slaughter thousands. Which one did God really send? Jesus respected the word of the Old Testament, which you appear to reject. Did you find your biblical justification for capital punishment in the New Testament? If so where? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, Shotgun said: You're correct and that was the motivation behind its development by M. Guillotine. He was horrified by the way his invention was used during the French revolution. If I invented a machine for chopping peoples' heads off I too would be horrified if it was used to chop peoples' heads off. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: Some of the shit that the bible says people should be killed for is barmy (including eating prawns). For anyone to try and use the bible as a method of justifying capital punishment is just bewildering. The Old Testament contains some seriously fucked up shit. Bigots of the American persuasion frequently cherry pick from it to justify their prejudices (it's God's law after all) so it can be handy to question why they don't follow the other rules forbidding such crimes as "letting your hair become unkempt", "going to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy or 66 days if it's a girl", "mixing fabrics in clothing", "trimming your beard or getting tattoos", or "not standing in the presence of the elderly" among others. Many of these should be punishable by death and yet, few Christians worry overly much about them, or the rules for how to treat slaves. But "having sex with a man as with a woman"? A disturbing number of them know the exact chapter and verse where that's forbidden. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ralstonite said: Really and truly, Jesus' words should abrogate everything in the Old Testament. “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Few rationally minded people would disagree with that. And then there's this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Without wanting to go all Macglashan, the guillotine is pretty much Scottish 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralstonite Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 minute ago, welshbairn said: Jesus respected the word of the Old Testament, which you appear to reject. Did you find your biblical justification for capital punishment in the New Testament? If so where? I wrote that I thought it 'might be' justifiable, but yes, it was the Old Testament - Genesis 9:6: 'Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed'. The Vatican says that capital punishment is now totally wrong in all circumstances, and so as a Catholic I should accept that. However a number of traditional Catholics believe that it is justified, and some believe the current pope is not legitimate (see Sedevacantism, Vatican II). If we as a society regressed to a state in which food was scarce and we could no longer imprison people for long periods of time, then what would one do with a serial murderer?! Is there such thing as universal justice, or is a 'just' punishment dependent on the affluence of society? Maybe proper justice for a murderer should be that he too shall have his life taken? I honestly cannot say with great conviction what I believe. 1 minute ago, Miguel Sanchez said: If I invented a machine for chopping peoples' heads off I too would be horrified if it was used to chop peoples' heads off. But what if the alternative was people being torn limb from limb by a mob? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said: If I invented a machine for chopping peoples' heads off I too would be horrified if it was used to chop peoples' heads off. Chuckle. Good point but what I meant was, M. Guillotine's goal was to provide a more humane way of dispatching criminals than the other methods in use at the time. He didn't expect it to be used for the wholesale slaughter of people who in many cases, hadn't really done anything wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, Ralstonite said: wrote that I thought it 'might be' justifiable, but yes, it was the Old Testament - Genesis 9:6: 'Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed'. The Vatican says that capital punishment is now totally wrong in all circumstances, and so as a Catholic I should accept that. However a number of traditional Catholics believe that it is justified, and some believe the current pope is not legitimate. You do realise that by basing the right to take someone's life on a particular interpretation of ancient texts, you have much in common with the man who chopped the teacher's head off? Curious as to why you would accept the Word in Genesis but not in Leviticus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 36 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: Without wanting to go all Macglashan, the guillotine is pretty much Scottish Interesting. Did no-one ever think of a multi-guillotine that would allow you to kill more than one person at a time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Miguel Sanchez said: If I invented a machine for chopping peoples' heads off I too would be horrified if it was used to chop peoples' heads off. 40 minutes ago, Shotgun said: Chuckle. Good point but what I meant was, M. Guillotine's goal was to provide a more humane way of dispatching criminals than the other methods in use at the time. He didn't expect it to be used for the wholesale slaughter of people who in many cases, hadn't really done anything wrong. That it got used very liberally on the aristocracy probably had something to do with it as well. Edited October 18, 2020 by NotThePars 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 IIRC the nobility wanted to find a method of execution that was as pain-free as possible after the mess they made of chopping Mary Queen of Scots' head off (it took the axeman three goes). After all, they knew that it could be them next. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralstonite Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 24 minutes ago, welshbairn said: You do realise that by basing the right to take someone's life on a particular interpretation of ancient texts, you have much in common with the man who chopped the teacher's head off? Curious as to why you would accept the Word in Genesis but not in Leviticus. I'm not familiar with Leviticus. I'll be honest, I haven't read most of the Old Testament and only do so to read prophecy (e.g. Daniel, Isaiah). Jesus' arrival signified God's new covenant with man, and therefore Christians are no longer obligated to follow the ceremonial laws and customs of the Old Testament. It's the same reason why Christians don't need to be circumcised, sacrifice animals, etc. By your definition, most of the population of the world have 'much in common with the man who chopped the teacher's head off', as do most people who have ever lived. Jews and Muslims have far more in common with one another than either of them do with Christians. Interestingly I tried to have a civil conversation and debate with a Jew once and he told me he had far more respect for Muslims as Islam's a truly monotheistic faith, whereas Christians like me are polytheistic because of our belief in the Trinity. But both Muslims and Jews adhere to ceremonial laws which is why both adhere to dietary laws (halal and kosher), get circumcised. Both have particular colours (green for Islam, blue for Judaism), and both pray a set number of times per day. In many ways Islam can be seen to be a continuation of the customs and traditions of Judaism. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ralstonite said: In many ways Islam can be seen to be a continuation of the customs and traditions of Judaism. It consciously sees itself as the perfection of Judaism and Christianity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Man Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Religion 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: Jesus respected the word of the Old Testament, which you appear to reject. Did you find your biblical justification for capital punishment in the New Testament? If so where? Tbf capital punishment is fairly central to the new testament. And as sound as the Jesus character undoubtedly is the book of Revelations in the NT raises the bar on nuttiness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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