Building a house

[Newbornbairn]

36 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

36mm low-emissivity triple glazing with argon gas filling and warm edge spacer will have a centre pane u-value of about 0.6W/m2k.  That’s about 20% of the u-value of external walls (traditional build or timber kit).  Given the ratio of glass to masonry required under the Building Standards I’m not sure how much more the floors, roof/ceilings and non-glass external walls would be required to compensate for the difference.

See, that's what I don't get. I knew a guy who was converting an old mill into a cafe. Change of use meant he had to meet current building regs including insulation. But he wanted to keep one wall bare to show the workings of the water wheel so he was told to increase the insulation on the other 3 walls. He queried this and asked if he could theoretically leave three walls bare but put 5ft of insulation on the 4th wall. "That would meet regs" he was told (this was in the 90s)

[greendot]

On 29/09/2020 at 09:38, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Make sure you use concrete. Plenty of concrete.

And send photos of said concrete to that sanctimonious p***k Kevin McCunt.

I like how you've used that as a bit of an insult to Kevin McLeod, but he does like a bit of concrete from time to time as it acts as a thermal store so it heats up during the day and releases the heat in the evening acting like one big radiator.  So it works quite well as part of an 'eco house'

On 30/09/2020 at 19:14, NewBornBairn said:

Sometimes better to buy a ramshackle house in the right location and demolish it. Already utilities on site and no change of use.

This is also a good option although depending on your local council area the planners sometimes have specific types of houses they'd like to see in the countryside.  I think someone mentioned the Hebredian type homes and i know that one is quite 'popular' with the planners in Angus.

On 03/10/2020 at 11:58, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Ive heard that some mortgage companies do this but there are specialist self build brokers and if you use a tried and tested company like Huf etc where they know the value of the property will rise quite high then you can get a mortgage relatively ok. 
theres a mortgage provider called ‘ecology’ who do full mortgages on self builds and offer discounts for enviromentally friendly builds. 

The stuff I've read about the self build mortgages are they lend at 60% rather than up to 90 / 95% for buying a house, plus the release of cash is different.  They do stage payments so you have to have cash to start the build, then they'll give the first payment, once its wind and water tight then they'll release more cash to finish it.  This is normally where a self builder will come unstuck if they don't have the contingency if something crops up somewhere along the way.

23 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said:

It's good to read they've already done some houses in Scotland as we have a different building control system from England and the structural design needs to be carried out or signed off by an engineer registered with the Scottish scheme. Assuming the Huf Haus design is carried out by the suppliers it's unlikely they would be registered here and would need to work with a local engineer. Doesn't need to be a problem but some of the more fanciful projects on Grand Designs like building walls using hay bales probaby wouldn't be allowed here if calculations can't be done.

 

 

20 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Yeh they seem to have a network of people they use to get a round that, theres 2 i know of on the west of Scotland, 1 on rothesay and 1 in Helensburgh (which was built by a chap who was an architect himself and designed Glasgow Sheriff Court (not sure thats anything to boast about)). So im sure they will be signed off etc. Also been looking at weberhaus and dan wood. They all seem to be able to build up here no problem and prices seem reasonable. Im literally years off starting this but feel like i need to start researching it all now. 

You'll always have a way of building using unusual constructions.  Typically with a straw bale house you'll either have the straw bale within a structural frame or possibly as a 'cladding' to the external frame depending on how its being constructed.

 

8 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I have no idea how that would comply with current Scottish Building Standards in relation to insulation values.

 

 

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

36mm low-emissivity triple glazing with argon gas filling and warm edge spacer will have a centre pane u-value of about 0.6W/m2k.  That’s about 20% of the u-value of external walls (traditional build or timber kit).  Given the ratio of glass to masonry required under the Building Standards I’m not sure how much more the floors, roof/ceilings and non-glass external walls would be required to compensate for the difference.

Incorrect.  Windows / Doors only have to have a 1.6U-Value so the panes you're quoting are almost 2/3rds better than what the regs say.  An insulated wall however only has to be 0.22UValue with roofs 0.15 and floors 0.18.  A Huf-Haus will more than likely beat these UValues so everything will comly easily.  It's just now a days we need to have 'new technologies' included as well so either Solar / PV Panels or Air Source Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat pump to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels.

 

If you're looking for a plot at all I've listed below a few places where they occassionally come up

 

https://www.futurepropertyauctions.co.uk/index.asp

 

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION^550&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=land&primaryDisplayPropertyType=land&includeSSTC=false&mustHave=&dontShow=&furnishTypes=&keywords=

http://www.sva-auctions.co.uk/

 

https://www.plotfinder.net/search/scotland

 

https://selfbuildportal.org.uk/

 

Hope that helps

Edited October 4, 2020 by greendot

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, greendot said:

I like how you've used that as a bit of an insult to Kevin McLeod, but he does like a bit of concrete from time to time as it acts as a thermal store so it heats up during the day and releases the heat in the evening acting like one big radiator.  So it works quite well as part of an 'eco house'

This is also a good option although depending on your local council area the planners sometimes have specific types of houses they'd like to see in the countryside.  I think someone mentioned the Hebredian type homes and i know that one is quite 'popular' with the planners in Angus.

The stuff I've read about the self build mortgages are they lend at 60% rather than up to 90 / 95% for buying a house, plus the release of cash is different.  They do stage payments so you have to have cash to start the build, then they'll give the first payment, once its wind and water tight then they'll release more cash to finish it.  This is normally where a self builder will come unstuck if they don't have the contingency if something crops up somewhere along the way.

 

 

You'll always have a way of building using unusual constructions.  Typically with a straw bale house you'll either have the straw bale within a structural frame or possibly as a 'cladding' to the external frame depending on how its being constructed.

 

 

Incorrect.  Windows / Doors only have to have a 1.6U-Value so the panes you're quoting are almost 2/3rds better than what the regs say.  An insulated wall however only has to be 0.22UValue with roofs 0.15 and floors 0.18.  A Huf-Haus will more than likely beat these UValues so everything will comly easily.  It's just now a days we need to have 'new technologies' included as well so either Solar / PV Panels or Air Source Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat pump to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels.

I can see me dropping you a few PM’s when we start looking at this seriously! 
The Scottish built kit homes all do look quite nice but they are very all ‘crofty’ style and tbh we want something modern like the huf or weberhaus style buildings. 
Thanks for the info there, a lot to think about. 

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, greendot said:

 

Incorrect.  Windows / Doors only have to have a 1.6U-Value so the panes you're quoting are almost 2/3rds better than what the regs say.  An insulated wall however only has to be 0.22UValue with roofs 0.15 and floors 0.18.  A Huf-Haus will more than likely beat these UValues so everything will comly easily.  It's just now a days we need to have 'new technologies' included as well so either Solar / PV Panels or Air Source Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat pump to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels.

What I’ve said is not incorrect and is not relevant to what you say.  I was making the point that the most effective glazing is still significantly less energy efficient than the requirement for external walls.

The values you quote are the minimum glazing values.  What your post ignores is the ratio of insulated walls to glazing required.  

[greendot]

5 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I can see me dropping you a few PM’s when we start looking at this seriously! 
The Scottish built kit homes all do look quite nice but they are very all ‘crofty’ style and tbh we want something modern like the huf or weberhaus style buildings. 
Thanks for the info there, a lot to think about. 

You might also want to look at your local council's planning portal, from the two places that have built a huf-haus that you mention nearby I've assumed its Argyll and Bute https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/planning-and-environment 

You'll want to look at the local development plan along with the planning advice notes / guidance as sometimes they will have specific information on houses in the countryside if that's the avenue you want to go down.  Or even giving your local council office a call to speak to a planner who would be able to email you some of the above info.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, greendot said:

You might also want to look at your local council's planning portal, from the two places that have built a huf-haus that you mention nearby I've assumed its Argyll and Bute https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/planning-and-environment 

You'll want to look at the local development plan along with the planning advice notes / guidance as sometimes they will have specific information on houses in the countryside if that's the avenue you want to go down.  Or even giving your local council office a call to speak to a planner who would be able to email you some of the above info.

Im in Renfrewshire but i’ll definitely have a good look at those. Appreciate the advice. I have some time tomorrow so will phone the planning office, they’ve been quite helpful with some issues we’ve had with neighbour building a huge garden room. 

[greendot]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

What I’ve said is not incorrect and is not relevant to what you say.  I was making the point that the most effective glazing is still significantly less energy efficient than the requirement for external walls.

The values you quote are the minimum glazing values.  What your post ignores is the ratio of insulated walls to glazing required.  

Glass will always be less energy efficient that an external insulated wall but your point is irellevant as the back stop values within any energy calculation package allows for an identical notional footprint of a building with the maximum of 25% glazing area with added zero or low energy improvements applied where as the proposed building can have as much or as little glazing as it likes providing the building as a whole 'beats' the target carbon emissions rates in CO2/m2/year but you know that already, right?

[greendot]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Im in Renfrewshire but i’ll definitely have a good look at those. Appreciate the advice. I have some time tomorrow so will phone the planning office, they’ve been quite helpful with some issues we’ve had with neighbour building a huge garden room. 

same stuff applies here http://www.renfrewshire.gov.uk/article/2149/Planning-building-standards-and-regeneration

 

I didn't quite see the parts that are applicable at a glance but as above a call to their office and hopefully you can get some good info.  Depending on what info they do give you, just clarify you're at the information gathering stage.  If you don't go down a huf-haus route then looking at some local architects work, you could get a huf-haus style house but architect designed instead?  Depending on your specific site constraints when you find one (from a planning issue) it may also be worth while getting a Planning Consultant on board as they can often use their knowledge to get an 'out of character' house permisson within certain areas however those guys usually charge a pretty penny as well so as usual its often down to a budget limitation more than anything else.

[Newbornbairn]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

36mm low-emissivity triple glazing with argon gas filling and warm edge spacer will have a centre pane u-value of about 0.6W/m2k.  That’s about 20% of the u-value of external walls (traditional build or timber kit).  Given the ratio of glass to masonry required under the Building Standards I’m not sure how much more the floors, roof/ceilings and non-glass external walls would be required to compensate for the difference.

 

37 minutes ago, greendot said:

I like how you've used that as a bit of an insult to Kevin McLeod, but he does like a bit of concrete from time to time as it acts as a thermal store so it heats up during the day and releases the heat in the evening acting like one big radiator.  So it works quite well as part of an 'eco house'

This is also a good option although depending on your local council area the planners sometimes have specific types of houses they'd like to see in the countryside.  I think someone mentioned the Hebredian type homes and i know that one is quite 'popular' with the planners in Angus.

The stuff I've read about the self build mortgages are they lend at 60% rather than up to 90 / 95% for buying a house, plus the release of cash is different.  They do stage payments so you have to have cash to start the build, then they'll give the first payment, once its wind and water tight then they'll release more cash to finish it.  This is normally where a self builder will come unstuck if they don't have the contingency if something crops up somewhere along the way.

 

 

You'll always have a way of building using unusual constructions.  Typically with a straw bale house you'll either have the straw bale within a structural frame or possibly as a 'cladding' to the external frame depending on how its being constructed.

 

 

Incorrect.  Windows / Doors only have to have a 1.6U-Value so the panes you're quoting are almost 2/3rds better than what the regs say.  An insulated wall however only has to be 0.22UValue with roofs 0.15 and floors 0.18.  A Huf-Haus will more than likely beat these UValues so everything will comly easily.  It's just now a days we need to have 'new technologies' included as well so either Solar / PV Panels or Air Source Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat pump to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels.

 

If you're looking for a plot at all I've listed below a few places where they occassionally come up

 

https://www.futurepropertyauctions.co.uk/index.asp

 

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION^550&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=land&primaryDisplayPropertyType=land&includeSSTC=false&mustHave=&dontShow=&furnishTypes=&keywords=

http://www.sva-auctions.co.uk/

 

https://www.plotfinder.net/search/scotland

 

https://selfbuildportal.org.uk/

 

Hope that helps

 

29 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

What I’ve said is not incorrect and is not relevant to what you say.  I was making the point that the most effective glazing is still significantly less energy efficient than the requirement for external walls.

The values you quote are the minimum glazing values.  What your post ignores is the ratio of insulated walls to glazing required.  

 

19 minutes ago, greendot said:

Glass will always be less energy efficient that an external insulated wall but your point is irellevant as the back stop values within any energy calculation package allows for an identical notional footprint of a building with the maximum of 25% glazing area with added zero or low energy improvements applied where as the proposed building can have as much or as little glazing as it likes providing the building as a whole 'beats' the target carbon emissions rates in CO2/m2/year but you know that already, right?

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by NewBornBairn

[Granny Danger]

15 minutes ago, greendot said:

Glass will always be less energy efficient that an external insulated wall but your point is irellevant as the back stop values within any energy calculation package allows for an identical notional footprint of a building with the maximum of 25% glazing area with added zero or low energy improvements applied where as the proposed building can have as much or as little glazing as it likes providing the building as a whole 'beats' the target carbon emissions rates in CO2/m2/year but you know that already, right?

Part of my job is designing and constructing sunrooms/extensions.  I openly admit that I have no involvement in new build houses.

For extensions the maximum glazing allowed is only 25% of the floor area, I’d be surprised if it is any less onerous for new build.

Houses with full glazed elevations must be difficult to achieve within the regulations, particularly when parts of other elevations would also need glazing.

 

[greendot]

38 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Part of my job is designing and constructing sunrooms/extensions.  I openly admit that I have no involvement in new build houses.

For extensions the maximum glazing allowed is only 25% of the floor area, I’d be surprised if it is any less onerous for new build.

Houses with full glazed elevations must be difficult to achieve within the regulations, particularly when parts of other elevations would also need glazing.

 

 

Depending on the situation for the extension / sun room the 25% rule can be ignored if you thermally divide it from the existing house e.g. retain an external grade  patio doorset between the existing house and extension.  Once building standards have been out the client can get the contractor back in to remove the doors if that was the desired outcome from the start!  Not that you tell building standards that though

Generally with a new build the overall U-Values are equal to or 'worse' than an extension depending if you're working to the column a or column b values based on the age of the property, however, on a new build everything is considered not just the UValues of each element e.g the buildings orientation, the g-values within the windows themselves, overshading of the building, site exposure etc  What i have found is that the thermal bridging values where different elements meet (e.g wall to floor detail) have a profound impact on how well a building performs.  This type of thing isn't considered in an extension.

[maicoman]

1 hour ago, greendot said:

I like how you've used that as a bit of an insult to Kevin McLeod, but he does like a bit of concrete from time to time as it acts as a thermal store so it heats up during the day and releases the heat in the evening acting like one big radiator.  So it works quite well as part of an 'eco house'

This is also a good option although depending on your local council area the planners sometimes have specific types of houses they'd like to see in the countryside.  I think someone mentioned the Hebredian type homes and i know that one is quite 'popular' with the planners in Angus.

The stuff I've read about the self build mortgages are they lend at 60% rather than up to 90 / 95% for buying a house, plus the release of cash is different.  They do stage payments so you have to have cash to start the build, then they'll give the first payment, once its wind and water tight then they'll release more cash to finish it.  This is normally where a self builder will come unstuck if they don't have the contingency if something crops up somewhere along the way.

 

 

You'll always have a way of building using unusual constructions.  Typically with a straw bale house you'll either have the straw bale within a structural frame or possibly as a 'cladding' to the external frame depending on how its being constructed.

 

 

Incorrect.  Windows / Doors only have to have a 1.6U-Value so the panes you're quoting are almost 2/3rds better than what the regs say.  An insulated wall however only has to be 0.22UValue with roofs 0.15 and floors 0.18.  A Huf-Haus will more than likely beat these UValues so everything will comly easily.  It's just now a days we need to have 'new technologies' included as well so either Solar / PV Panels or Air Source Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat pump to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels.

 

If you're looking for a plot at all I've listed below a few places where they occassionally come up

 

https://www.futurepropertyauctions.co.uk/index.asp

 

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION^550&radius=10.0&propertyTypes=land&primaryDisplayPropertyType=land&includeSSTC=false&mustHave=&dontShow=&furnishTypes=&keywords=

http://www.sva-auctions.co.uk/

 

https://www.plotfinder.net/search/scotland

 

https://selfbuildportal.org.uk/

 

Hope that helps

If you were buying a plot at auction would you get hit by the 20% vat on to the price?

[greendot]

11 minutes ago, maicoman said:

If you were buying a plot at auction would you get hit by the 20% vat on to the price?

 

Under the terms and conditions point 18.  Doesn't clarify on the full bid price but on that basis i would assume so?  Not bought from auction before so I'm not sure.

Quote

VAT: Where applicable VAT should be added to any Deposit lodged with the Auctioneers, for any Proxy or Internet bid.

Edited October 4, 2020 by greendot

[Melanius Mullarkey]

I doubt he even understands the concept of an efficient thermal mass element as it "looks too industrial, where's the weathered cladding imported from foothills of the Himalayas?".

Kevin McCloud is still a c**t and that's the hill I'm prepared to die on. 

 

 

[Granny Danger]

8 hours ago, greendot said:

 

Depending on the situation for the extension / sun room the 25% rule can be ignored if you thermally divide it from the existing house e.g. retain an external grade  patio doorset between the existing house and extension.  Once building standards have been out the client can get the contractor back in to remove the doors if that was the desired outcome from the start!  Not that you tell building standards that though

Generally with a new build the overall U-Values are equal to or 'worse' than an extension depending if you're working to the column a or column b values based on the age of the property, however, on a new build everything is considered not just the UValues of each element e.g the buildings orientation, the g-values within the windows themselves, overshading of the building, site exposure etc  What i have found is that the thermal bridging values where different elements meet (e.g wall to floor detail) have a profound impact on how well a building performs.  This type of thing isn't considered in an extension.

Everything in your first paragraph is correct, and totally irrelevant to the discussion.  I only mentioned extensions to raise the glazing to floor area ratio.

I have no idea how the builders of the house that was shown earlier achieved the trade-off to permit that level of glazing.

If @Inanimate Carbon Rod ever pursues this option I’d be really interested in the overall insulation requirements needed in floors, ceilings and external walls to achieve that level of glazing.

 

[Duszek]

Apologies if already posted but have you seen this? Looks amazing, made in Italy. 

https://mashable.com/2017/11/27/madi-unfolding-modular-home-living-unit-italy-built-in-6-hours/?europe=true

 

[greendot]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

Everything in your first paragraph is correct, and totally irrelevant to the discussion.  I only mentioned extensions to raise the glazing to floor area ratio.

I have no idea how the builders of the house that was shown earlier achieved the trade-off to permit that level of glazing.

If @Inanimate Carbon Rod ever pursues this option I’d be really interested in the overall insulation requirements needed in floors, ceilings and external walls to achieve that level of glazing.

 

As i said before, you can't just take the glazing and the 25% floor area ratio on its own.  It's more to do with the back stop values.  e.g the walls need to be 0.22 of a U-Value however, its easily achievable to create a wall with a U-value of 0.17 so if the walls amounted to 100m2 you could improve the heat loss by 5 (0.22 - 0.17 x 100) however if you apply that to the glazing figures 0.6 instead of 1.6 you're making an improvement of 100 (1.6 - 0.6 x 100) so in a weird way the more glazing (within reason of course) you're going to make a bigger improvement overall.  What I've found is how you heat a building combined with the thermal bridging values make the biggest standard improvements on how a building performs (I'll check when i go into work today but a recent project that is about to start had a floor area of approx 350 - 400 m2 over two floors but did incorporate two glass gables as well as substantial openings in many other rooms so I'll check the figures on that and its passed its energy calculations with ease).

 

If i take a typical stewart milne / cala house as an example you might have 4 PV Panels on the roof and those are enough to push the dwelling emissions beyond the target emissions rate so that it passes.  However, the equivalent huf-haus with a larger amount of openings may need double the PV Panels for it to pass as well.  The trade offs aren't exclusively based on the insulation envelope.  E.g in terms of heating a house, electric heating typically is the worst performing because although they are classed as 100% efficient because they rely on fossil fuels they dont offset any energy, gas / oil boilers are better but they still rely on fossil fuels.  Air and Ground Source although they are electric they gain 'free' energy from the air or ground so will offset energy within the calcuation.  The same applies to solar or PV Panels which offset the reliance of electricity to heat hot water or produce electricity.

 

I hope that's a bit clearer? 

 

Also I'd rather not outnerd this topic too much but i really could go on for hours about energy efficient homes.  Don't get me started on a passiv-haus though!  That for me is the dream but although i do share the OPs design thoughts on the modern 'hollywood' style homes I know those would struggle to meet the standards.  This was the winner of the RIBA Sterling prize last year, a council housing estate which was passive haus designed.  Not the greatest looking development but small things like not having a letter box on your door was required to meet the passiv haus standard cos it caused too much of a draft! https://www.architecture.com/awards-and-competitions-landing-page/awards/riba-regional-awards/riba-east-award-winners/2019/goldsmith-street#

[maicoman]

On 03/10/2020 at 14:03, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

They are amazing, I just love how they look. The prices you see for them on resale are no where near the cost of them new, they increase in value and the average UK price for a Huf Haus is huge because they are largely concentrated in South East England and near London. The average price of a huf haus based on the 4 I can find values for in Scotland is under £500k. 

Can see people making a lot of money out of building one and living in it for 2 year to avoid tax in South East England Might be a lot different if you built one in say Stranraer where property prices are low you  could be a long time before you would get your money back on a build? Guessing that they will only be built in affluent areas in Scotland  As you are from Renfrewshire you will need to find a plot in Kilmacolm for future resale value

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, maicoman said:

Can see people making a lot of money out of building one and living in it for 2 year to avoid tax in South East England Might be a lot different if you built one in say Stranraer where property prices are low you  could be a long time before you would get your money back on a build? Guessing that they will only be built in affluent areas in Scotland  As you are from Renfrewshire you will need to find a plot in Kilmacolm for future resale value

Houston or Bridge of Weir would be better actually as Kilmacolm doesnt have a great high school catchment area and is in Inverclyde. Its a lovely area though but for me sticking with one of those two to get it in the Gryffe High school area would be a win. Ultimately it’d be a long term house for us, not looking to sell and make loads of money, but if it generated equity to make my retirement a bit more comfortable when we would downsize then that is a bonus. 

[RH33]

I’ve heard nothing but negative things about Gryffe High. To the point where even moving schools and towns last year it want into its catchment.