No crowds?

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

Whereas others waited before committing and in the most ending the season on the park

Most had the same struggles. Maybe seeing the EPL, Bundesliga, or La Liga play out there seasons made you think that most waited it out and played it out the season.

Once you get past the TV Money/Top Tier divisions, you'd see the same haphazard approach that took place in Scotland. Different leagues in the same national system curtailing their seasons and coming up with different answers.

Those that did come up with various play-off approaches to try and put a bow on the 2019-20 season, typically did so in the summer months. Which wasn't something the Scottish non-league could do.

[Jerry Macguire]

46 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

SPFL play offs has no bearing on EoS. Clubs have now been playing for 8 or so weeks without fans and therefore no gate income, some clubs still have no access to changing facilities, nobody is allowed to shower or enter dressing rooms at half time. Maybe some clubs are concerned that their fans still aren't allowed entry whilst the season continues. I'm baffled as to why you're baffled that some people think that a break might be a wise move. The vaccine will not be generally available this season and is probably irrelevant to my opinion.

 

 

 

Your part of the pyramid. Your champion club has the chance of promotion to the LL. Conditions are exactly the same for everyone and the vaccine will be readily available to the at risk groups before the end of the season. The reason I’m baffled is that now there is hope that circumstances might improve you want to stop. I understand the financial concerns clubs have and that is why the LL and WoSL have given clubs 2 chances to withdraw for the season. You appear to want the league to make that decision for everyone whether they want to continue or not. I respect any club that makes the decision to play or to stop but surely that’s a decision is for them to make. 

[vikingTON]

16 minutes ago, Passthebaw said:

"Onus should be on the football clubs" and "try to guilt trip the Government" suggests the clubs have accepted no responsibility here. The football clubs involved have shown remarkable resilience against a tidal wave of ignorance & illogical decisioning by this Government.

Erm no. The business model for running 'professional' football outside of the top tier does not exist right now because of the pandemic. Nobody put a gun to the head of Scottish football clubs to start a new season when it was perfectly clear that there wouldn't be an elimination of the threat nor crowds. Football clubs chose to batter on regardless and try to panhandle their fanbase to buy shite streams/berate the government for not giving them special consideration in the middle of a pandemic. Neither of which is working.

Quote

These glorified councillors have no interest in football and the mental strength it offers so many.

If clubs were interested in how the game supports the mental health of so many in their community then they'd now be putting their season on hold until fans of all ages can safely attend matches again in the spring. It's really that straightforward. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by vikingTON

[Jerry Macguire]

30 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

The real problem is decisions aren't thought through.

Decision aren't applied universally throughout the divisions impacted.

We saw last season how Scottish football rushed head first into ending the season in various ways.

Whereas others waited before committing and in the most ending the season on the park

I think it’s unfair to say decisions aren’t thought through, although I get where your coming from. Some of the decisions may not be perfect but ultimately every decision made is a compromise and is made by the clubs themselves, either by the board they nominate or by ballot. Some leagues have shown leadership by putting rules in place before the season started, some have had to adapt as the season has unfolded and then of course you have the basket case that is the SPFL. We are all part of the pyramid and all that entails so it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about promotion to the SPFL or promotion from tier 6 it’s all linked. Some of the comments on here about guilt tripping fans is wrong in my opinion. If fans genuinely felt like that they wouldn’t subscribe, the wouldn’t buy season tickets in the knowledge they can’t go to games and they wouldn’t give to donation sites like donate a ticket. Fact is they’re doing all that and more and I’m sure committees of  clubs benefitting from this will be looking for ways to reward these fans in the future. We’re nearly there so I just can’t understand why we would want to stop now. This notion we can hit pause and start again at some point in the future is fantasy. 

[Jerry Macguire]

17 minutes ago, virginton said:

Erm no. The business model for running 'professional' football outside of the top tier does not exist right now because of the pandemic. Nobody put a gun to the head of Scottish football clubs to start a new season when it was perfectly clear that there wouldn't be an elimination of the threat nor crowds. Football clubs chose to batter on regardless and try to panhandle their fanbase to buy shite streams/berate the government for not giving them special consideration in the middle of a pandemic. Neither of which is working.

If clubs were interested in how the game supports the mental health of so many in their community then they'd now be putting their season on hold until fans of all ages can safely attend matches again in the spring. It's really that straightforward. 

Really. Okay then

[Burnieman]

16 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Your part of the pyramid. Your champion club has the chance of promotion to the LL. Conditions are exactly the same for everyone and the vaccine will be readily available to the at risk groups before the end of the season. The reason I’m baffled is that now there is hope that circumstances might improve you want to stop. I understand the financial concerns clubs have and that is why the LL and WoSL have given clubs 2 chances to withdraw for the season. You appear to want the league to make that decision for everyone whether they want to continue or not. I respect any club that makes the decision to play or to stop but surely that’s a decision is for them to make. 

I think I'm well aware what we're part of, doesn't remove the fact it has hee haw to do with the SPFL/tier 5. 

I don't want us to stop, but I can see why a pause may be a good idea.  Playing on without fans come what may does not make good financial sense, and is pretty damaging for some clubs (over and above the changing room/shower issues).  Withdrawal isn't an option, clubs don't have a free pass to return where they left off and rightly so, the EoS have got that part exactly right.  If you pause for a period of time, you then have a better chance of playing games in front of fans in the latter part of the season, let's face it most EoS clubs have experience of playing 3 and even 4 times a week in April/May/June to finish a season when in the Juniors. The EoS wont need to resort to that extreme, but it's an option.

When you really take it back to basics, football is for fans and at our level there is clearly no luxury of TV coverage, some clubs have the ability to stream with varying quality which helps, but many more do not.  So what are we playing for if no fans are present? maybe a pause will allow us to restart with a clearer idea of when to expect fans, and allow hard pressed committee's to plan for that eventuality. They've all been working their baws off for the last 2-3 months to get teams on the park and into changing rooms.

I'm sure the fans currently locked out would appreciate it if they were part of the thinking in all of this.

 

[Burnieman]

4 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

I think it’s unfair to say decisions aren’t thought through, although I get where your coming from. Some of the decisions may not be perfect but ultimately every decision made is a compromise and is made by the clubs themselves, either by the board they nominate or by ballot. Some leagues have shown leadership by putting rules in place before the season started, some have had to adapt as the season has unfolded and then of course you have the basket case that is the SPFL. We are all part of the pyramid and all that entails so it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about promotion to the SPFL or promotion from tier 6 it’s all linked. Some of the comments on here about guilt tripping fans is wrong in my opinion. If fans genuinely felt like that they wouldn’t subscribe, the wouldn’t buy season tickets in the knowledge they can’t go to games and they wouldn’t give to donation sites like donate a ticket. Fact is they’re doing all that and more and I’m sure committees of  clubs benefitting from this will be looking for ways to reward these fans in the future. We’re nearly there so I just can’t understand why we would want to stop now. This notion we can hit pause and start again at some point in the future is fantasy. 

Not all clubs have been selling season tickets, not all clubs stream games, not every club made bucket loads from donate-a-ticket (which turned into a "who's got the biggest sponsor" contest rather than individual fans chucking in money).  We are not "nearly there" at all, Level 4 areas won't be anywhere near Level 1 (the current level required to allow fans) anytime soon, particularly with the "take 5 days off at Xmas" coming up and the undoubted mess that will be NY. We could all be back in Level 4 in January.

[Jerry Macguire]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

I think I'm well aware what we're part of, doesn't remove the fact it has hee haw to do with the SPFL/tier 5. 

I don't want us to stop, but I can see why a pause may be a good idea.  Playing on without fans come what may does not make good financial sense, and is pretty damaging for some clubs (over and above the changing room/shower issues).  Withdrawal isn't an option, clubs don't have a free pass to return where they left off and rightly so, the EoS have got that part exactly right.  If you pause for a period of time, you then have a better chance of playing games in front of fans in the latter part of the season, let's face it most EoS clubs have experience of playing 3 and even 4 times a week in April/May/June to finish a season when in the Juniors. The EoS wont need to resort to that extreme, but it's an option.

When you really take it back to basics, football is for fans and at our level there is clearly no luxury of TV coverage, some clubs have the ability to stream with varying quality which helps, but many more do not.  So what are we playing for if no fans are present? maybe a pause will allow us to restart with a clearer idea of when to expect fans, and allow hard pressed committee's to plan for that eventuality. They've all been working their baws off for the last 2-3 months to get teams on the park and into changing rooms.

I'm sure the fans currently locked out would appreciate it if they were part of the thinking in all of this.

 

Okay I see the logic in your argument but let’s say the EoSL hit the pause button and resume in time to complete their season by the end of June. As you haven’t provided a champion club on time your excluded from the tier 6/LL play offs. Will that be okay?

[Passthebaw]

31 minutes ago, virginton said:

Football clubs chose to batter on regardless and try to panhandle their fanbase to buy shite streams/berate the government for not giving them special consideration in the middle of a pandemic. Neither of which is working.

The streams are not "shite". Nobody is forced to buy, some are free and others ask for donations. I watch and pay for a stream every week and am appreciative of the opportunity to watch a variety of games at varied costs. I also don't agree we are in "the middle of a pandemic" - there is light at the end of the tunnel and the leagues are hotting up nicely when virus numbers are reducing. Why can't teams in Tier 2 start to have home fans? Season Ticket holders? Adopt the Highland League proposals?

Quote

If clubs were interested in how the game supports the mental health of so many in their community then they'd now be putting their season on hold until fans of all ages can safely attend matches again in the spring. It's really that straightforward. 

It's not straightforward at all. Ask the fans, ask the players? I think you'd find the vast majority want a "new normal" returned asap when great strides have been made this last 2 months. Let's continue with that progress and treat footballers & fans as adults. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Passthebaw

[Jerry Macguire]

3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Not all clubs have been selling season tickets, not all clubs stream games, not every club made bucket loads from donate-a-ticket (which turned into a "who's got the biggest sponsor" contest rather than individual fans chucking in money).  We are not "nearly there" at all, Level 4 areas won't be anywhere near Level 1 (the current level required to allow fans) anytime soon, particularly with the "take 5 days off at Xmas" coming up and the undoubted mess that will be NY. We could all be back in Level 4 in January.

Burnieman I really do respect you and always enjoy reading your posts. Try and keep you chin up mate. I know it’s tough right now but things will get better. Hopefully soon.

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Okay I see the logic in your argument but let’s say the EoSL hit the pause button and resume in time to complete their season by the end of June. As you haven’t provided a champion club on time your excluded from the tier 6/LL play offs. Will that be okay?

Does there need to be a set date to provide a Champion club for LL promotion given the circumstances we're operating under? do we need to restrict ourselves via the rule book?  Christ we have leagues who are allowing clubs to avoid relegation by simply withdrawing without penalty, we have leagues who are allowing clubs to withdraw which has resulted in no promotion at all for those lower down. How does that all fit into the "we're professional so act professional" argument?

[Jerry Macguire]

Just now, Burnieman said:

Does there need to be a set date to provide a Champion club for LL promotion given the circumstances we're operating under? do we need to restrict ourselves via the rule book?  Christ we have leagues who are allowing clubs to avoid relegation by simply withdrawing without penalty, we have leagues who are allowing clubs to withdraw which has resulted in no promotion at all for those lower down. How does that all fit into the "we're professional so act professional" argument?

All of which was agreed before the season started. The one principle I truly believe in is not changing the rules once the season has started. I know that isn’t what happened last season but at that stage we weren’t in control of our own destiny. If however you can get LL, SoSL & WoSL to agree to delaying that date then fine. What do you think the chances are of that happening though?

[Burnieman]

Just now, Jerry Macguire said:

Burnieman I really do respect you and always enjoy reading your posts. Try and keep you chin up mate. I know it’s tough right now but things will get better. Hopefully soon.

Just as an aside, my club could probably go through the entire season with no gate income, it wouldn't be easy and it would have a knock-on effect but if it happened we'll still be here next season.

However, I see the same 10-15 guys every home game looking over our fence from the embankment watching our games (in between the advertising boards that get in the way of parts of the pitch) and thinking this is an utterly daft situation to be in, I really feel for these guys who just want to watch their team (or sons) play fitba, they're there regardless of weather, they haven't been inside a ground for 8 months.  I want these guys inside the ground, probably safer that way, but we're not allowed to and if they eventually are there may be hardly any games left to play.

It's all well and good those of us who can watch a game every single week because we're mucking in and helping out on matchdays, but the guys keeking over the fence don't have that option, and obviously don't even bother for away games. If I was in that situation I'd be climbing the walls.

Sometimes we need to think about them as well.

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Jerry Macguire said:

All of which was agreed before the season started. The one principle I truly believe in is not changing the rules once the season has started. I know that isn’t what happened last season but at that stage we weren’t in control of our own destiny. If however you can get LL, SoSL & WoSL to agree to delaying that date then fine. What do you think the chances are of that happening though?

It's immaterial when it was agreed (there's that rule book again), but there's the situation where a club plays until December, they're in relegation trouble so can simply withdraw with no penalty.  How can that be anything other than tin pot? Even the Juniors wouldn't have dared pulled that trick.  That's where you need a strong board to say GTF should any clubs dare suggest it.

As for delaying the play-off, I'd like to think there wouldn't be an issue given we're in unprecedented circumstances. Maybe gives all leagues a bit of breathing space and a chance to follow suit and pause their season.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Passthebaw said:

The streams are not "shite". Nobody is forced to buy, some are free and others ask for donations. I watch and pay for a stream every week and am appreciative of the opportunity to watch a variety of games at varied costs.

The streams as a commercially sold product are absolutely shite at every level. That's not the fault of the people trying their best to put a package together: it's the economic reality that the price point that you need to have streams come even close to replacing matchday revenue is far, far higher than the real value of the product. The bulk of the value in Scottish football at every level is not provided by the ninety minutes of action on the park but the enjoyment surrounding it, which even the best stream in the world cannot provide. 

Quote

I also don't agree we are in "the middle of a pandemic" - there is light at the end of the tunnel and the leagues are hotting up nicely when virus numbers are reducing. Why can't teams in Tier 2 start to have home fans? Season Ticket holders? Adopt the Highland League proposals?

It's a point of fact that we're in the middle of a pandemic. The government is building up to tighten/reimpose existing restrictions in January after the festive period so your pleading for tier 2 areas to get the fans in right now is a spectacular misreading of the mood music. You must be briefing Doncaster as well.

The fact that there is light at the end of the tunnel is why the only rational decision to make now is to postpone these ruinous fixtures in sham circumstances when we can have what everyone wants back - perhaps with some inconveniences remaining - from the spring. There is absolutely zero logic to battering on with games in December and January instead.

Quote

It's not straightforward at all. Ask the fans, ask the players? I think you'd find the vast majority want a "new normal" returned asap when great strides have been made this last 2 months. Let's continue with that progress and treat footballers & fans as adults. 

When were fans consulted on this and what were the results? And by this I don't mean a 'do you want the fitba back Yes/No' question but rather a poll of the only two credible options on the table: hold games BCD now or wait and get to attend games from the spring. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by vikingTON

[Jerry Macguire]

4 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Just as an aside, my club could probably go through the entire season with no gate income, it wouldn't be easy and it would have a knock-on effect but if it happened we'll still be here next season.

However, I see the same 10-15 guys every home game looking over our fence from the embankment watching our games (in between the advertising boards that get in the way of parts of the pitch) and thinking this is an utterly daft situation to be in, I really feel for these guys who just want to watch their team (or sons) play fitba, they're there regardless of weather, they haven't been inside a ground for 8 months.  I want these guys inside the ground, probably safer that way, but we're not allowed to and if they eventually are there may be hardly any games left to play.

It's all well and good those of us who can watch a game every single week because we're mucking in and helping out on matchdays, but the guys keeking over the fence don't have that option, and obviously don't even bother for away games. If I was in that situation I'd be climbing the walls.

Sometimes we need to think about them as well.

Its really good to hear that sentiment and I totally get it. I'm fortunate in that my club is streaming all the games for free and the one game I haven't been able to get for free I was able to get on PPV. It isn't the same though and although I can't go to games I do really appreciate and feel fortunate that my club is able to provide this. For clubs that are unable to provide this it must be really tough on them and they're supporters. 

[Burnieman]

12 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Its really good to hear that sentiment and I totally get it. I'm fortunate in that my club is streaming all the games for free and the one game I haven't been able to get for free I was able to get on PPV. It isn't the same though and although I can't go to games I do really appreciate and feel fortunate that my club is able to provide this. For clubs that are unable to provide this it must be really tough on them and they're supporters. 

We don't all have the luxury of a media team sadly.

[Jerry Macguire]

45 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

We don't all have the luxury of a media team sadly.

More and more clubs are seeing the advantage of using social media and the Internet to reach their supporters. Can only be a good thing IMO.

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, Passthebaw said:

"Onus should be on the football clubs" and "try to guilt trip the Government" suggests the clubs have accepted no responsibility here. The football clubs involved have shown remarkable resilience against a tidal wave of ignorance & illogical decisioning by this Government. These glorified councillors have no interest in football and the mental strength it offers so many.

Is it illogical or do you just not understand, like or agree with it?

I mean, when it comes down to the incredibly complex decisions to be made with public health and epidemiology, the logical choice is to go with the folk with the PhDs over some football fans that disagree with them.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 hours ago, Burnieman said:

As for delaying the play-off, I'd like to think there wouldn't be an issue given we're in unprecedented circumstances. Maybe gives all leagues a bit of breathing space and a chance to follow suit and pause their season.

With vaccines in place, it is more and more likely that the 2021-22 season will kick-off as normal.

Delay the 2020-21 season by a month until the end of June, when do you have a close season?