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mcruic

Structure for 2021/2022

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1 hour ago, mcruic said:

I don't see any problems with putting the SoS within the WoS structure.  If Border teams can travel to Fife and Perthshire, then there isn't an issue.  If an SoS team gets promoted to the LL, they will have much more travelling to do anyway.  There's no travel issue until an SoS team accepts promotion anyway.  And they'd have travel issues no matter what league they were promoted into.

Hawick to Perth, Berwick to Perth are both about a 2 hour drive. It's about the most extreme you can get and doing so you'd be passing through maybe 30 odd non-league clubs with another 20ish in the West Lothian/Stirlingshire side.

Wigtown to Kilmarnock, Abbey Vale to Kilmarnock are about an hour 45. With about 15 non-SoSFL on the way. Which includes the likes of Auchinleck and Glenafton who aren't likely to be Tier 6 or below anytime soon.

There's a reason why some in the EoSFL would like to see the lower tiers regionalised as they have the depth and geographic spread of clubs where it would be beneficial. That doesn't exist in the WoSFL/EoSFL and why a WoSFL South at say Tier 8 that's inclusive of old Ayrshire & South teams isn't the most practical.

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1 hour ago, jimbaxters said:

Maybe the conferences but they wouldn't get near tier 6.

Girvan could get to be one of the Top 12 teams in the West, but a Threave Rovers could never get to be one of the Top 16 in the West?

A West that over time wouldn't include the likes of Auchinleck Talbot or Pollok as once promoted to the Lowland League they'll likely never play in the WoSFL again.

Edited by FairWeatherFan

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4 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

Are the SoSL interested in joining the WoSFL?

At the time of applications there were rumours of some of the individual clubs looking into it. How real that was we'll never know, only Bonnyton Thistle went through with it.

Something that goes towards the viability of the league's standing is what Dalbeattie Star and Gretna 2008 decide to do. They're amongst the handful of clubs that are likely to be relegated from the Lowland League in the coming years. If they were to try and get into the WoSFL it becomes harder to justify the SoSFL at Tier 6.

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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

A West that over time wouldn't include the likes of Auchinleck Talbot or Pollok as once promoted to the Lowland League they'll likely never playing in the WoSFL

If you take out Talbot alone from the WoSFL then it changes the whole dynamic of the league. No wonder Darvel are splashing the cash.

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18 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

If you take out Talbot alone from the WoSFL then it changes the whole dynamic of the league. No wonder Darvel are splashing the cash.

Darvel at this point is to be expected. I'm more curious to see what Drumchapel United and St Cadoc's have about them. I can remember both clubs being tipped as potential Conference winners when people started to make predictions.

If they end up being a mix of Rossvale & Gartcairn then you're talking about another couple of clubs that could make WoS Premier level with a support that struggles to get more than a 100+ through the gate.

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19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Darvel at this point is to be expected. I'm more curious to see what Drumchapel United and St Cadoc's have about them. I can remember both clubs being tipped as potential Conference winners when people started to make predictions.

If they end up being a mix of Rossvale & Gartcairn then you're talking about another couple of clubs that could make WoS Premier level with a support that struggles to get more than a 100+ through the gate.

St Cadocs will probably will do well.

They have Johnny Millar and his backroom staff in management and have taken a few of his old Beith players with him.

Good experienced Juniors who will do well I imagine.

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3 hours ago, andy25 said:

There are 14 teams in the South of Scotland League.

I discounted the reserve teams.

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24 minutes ago, WilliamBragg said:

St Cadocs will probably will do well.

They have Johnny Millar and his backroom staff in management and have taken a few of his old Beith players with him.

Good experienced Juniors who will do well I imagine.

In friendly matches, Drumchapel United have won 1-0 at WoS Premier side Benburb, while St. Cadoc's drew 2-2 at WoS Premier side Rossvale, and won 4-0 at St. Anthony's.

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3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Hawick to Perth, Berwick to Perth are both about a 2 hour drive. It's about the most extreme you can get and doing so you'd be passing through maybe 30 odd non-league clubs with another 20ish in the West Lothian/Stirlingshire side.

Wigtown to Kilmarnock, Abbey Vale to Kilmarnock are about an hour 45. With about 15 non-SoSFL on the way. Which includes the likes of Auchinleck and Glenafton who aren't likely to be Tier 6 or below anytime soon.

There's a reason why some in the EoSFL would like to see the lower tiers regionalised as they have the depth and geographic spread of clubs where it would be beneficial. That doesn't exist in the WoSFL/EoSFL and why a WoSFL South at say Tier 8 that's inclusive of old Ayrshire & South teams isn't the most practical.

I know - I wasn't advocating mixing the SoS with Ayrshire teams - they'd be separate leagues at Tier 8.  That way the South teams could play among themselves as they do now, but also be in the correct place in the pecking order.  If Threave want to go up, they can surely travel to Glasgow, Lanarkshire, etc.  If they were to go up from Tier 6 now, they'd have to travel further than that.

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2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

At the time of applications there were rumours of some of the individual clubs looking into it. How real that was we'll never know, only Bonnyton Thistle went through with it.

Something that goes towards the viability of the league's standing is what Dalbeattie Star and Gretna 2008 decide to do. They're amongst the handful of clubs that are likely to be relegated from the Lowland League in the coming years. If they were to try and get into the WoSFL it becomes harder to justify the SoSFL at Tier 6.

Bonnyton were always the most likely, as they were already an outlier, located in WoS territory.

It will indeed be interesting if Dalbeattie and/or Gretna try to get into the WoSFL.  Is there no "geographical determiner" at the moment for teams relegated from Tier 5 which dictates which league they have to go to?

One would think they might opt for the SoS, as it would be easier to get back out of and regain their LL place.  Caledonian Braves also interesting - if they get relegated, they are in "WoS territory", but came from the SoS originally.

 

 

Edited by mcruic

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2 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Bonnyton were always the most likely, as they were already an outlier, located in WoS territory.

It will indeed be interesting if Dalbeattie and/or Gretna try to get into the WoSFL.  Is there no "geographical determiner" at the moment for teams relegated from Tier 5 which dictates which league they have to go to?

One would think they might opt for the SoS, as it would be easier to get back out of and regain their LL place.  Caledonian Braves also interesting - if they get relegated, they are in "WoS territory", but came from the SoS originally.

 

 

How relegation works by the Lowland League rules:

Relegation from the League

B5 The number of clubs for the forthcoming season will be calculated by adding to the number of clubs in membership at the end of the current season, adding anyclub that may be promoted from the EoSFL, SoSFL or WoSFL, adding any clubthat may be relegated from the SPFL and subtracting any club that may be promoted to the SPFL.In order to maintain a maximum of sixteen clubs(or such other number as may be set by the Board pursuant to by Rule B1), the bottom club or clubs at the end of the current season will be relegated to the league(s) decided by a joint meeting of the representatives of the League, the EoSFL, SoSFLand WoSFL prior to the start of each season. (Please refer to Annex II for illustration of the process for deciding on relegation.)

So the leagues decide amongst themselves. Last year Gretna 2008 would have been relegated to the SoSFL having never actually played there before and still being a member of the EoSFA for example. In theory then, Dalbeattie and Gretna 2008 if/when relegated should end up in the SoSFL.

As Caledonian Braves I'm wondering what happens if they get relegated as well. For example could they be relegated to the WoSFL and be allowed to keep their SoSFL team going? Or because of their SoSFL team would they be allowed to be relegated to the SoSFL? At least in their case it's not a set of questions that are likely to be answered anytime soon.

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59 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As Caledonian Braves I'm wondering what happens if they get relegated as well. For example could they be relegated to the WoSFL and be allowed to keep their SoSFL team going? Or because of their SoSFL team would they be allowed to be relegated to the SoSFL? At least in their case it's not a set of questions that are likely to be answered anytime soon.

I'd like to see reserve teams removed from senior leagues, if possible.  There are reserve leagues already, and Lowland League clubs play in them - East Kilbride, BSC Glasgow, for example.  I'm sure Stranraer, Caledonian Braves and University of Stirling could put their reserve teams into these leagues.  Hopefully, we don't see any reserve teams starting up in the WoS League when it begins to take shape.

 

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7 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I'd like to see reserve teams removed from senior leagues, if possible.  There are reserve leagues already, and Lowland League clubs play in them - East Kilbride, BSC Glasgow, for example.  I'm sure Stranraer, Caledonian Braves and University of Stirling could put their reserve teams into these leagues.  Hopefully, we don't see any reserve teams starting up in the WoS League when it begins to take shape.

 

The main reason I don't like the University of Stirling and potentially Caledonian Braves teams is because it looks more like propping up their "business model". Stirling for whatever football course they run and i'm assuming the Braves South team is the French lads from Edusport Academy. 

For the likes of Stranraer and Nairn County up in the NCL, its more about the geographic quirks the teams and leagues operate under. At least with the Stranraer reserve side and their success in the league it might one day inspire another Stranraer Athletic offshoot.  SFA membership, SCC, promotion there's more for them to play for than in the 90s/00s.

With the depth in numbers of the WoSFL and EoSFL I hope a reserve side would never pass a membership vote.

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Regarding Stranraer, their Development (U20) team played in the SPFL Development Leagues for a few years, as did QoS.  QoS continued into the reserve league replacements, but Stranraer didn't.

Stranraer is just about big enough to have 2 senior teams.  There are other teams in Scotland that don't have reserve teams, as such (Montrose, Arbroath, etc.), but seem to manage fine.  Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibernian, etc. also don't have a league for their reserves to play in, as they withdrew from it.  Is it essential that Stranraer has a league for their reserves to play in?

Nairn's reserve team is essentially the U-20 team (which has played in the North of Scotland Development League for the last 5 seasons).  So they already had a league to play in.

Edited by mcruic

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1 hour ago, mcruic said:

Regarding Stranraer, their Development (U20) team played in the SPFL Development Leagues for a few years, as did QoS.  QoS continued into the reserve league replacements, but Stranraer didn't.

Stranraer is just about big enough to have 2 senior teams.  There are other teams in Scotland that don't have reserve teams, as such (Montrose, Arbroath, etc.), but seem to manage fine.  Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibernian, etc. also don't have a league for their reserves to play in, as they withdrew from it.  Is it essential that Stranraer has a league for their reserves to play in?

Nairn's reserve team is essentially the U-20 team (which has played in the North of Scotland Development League for the last 5 seasons).  So they already had a league to play in.

QoS are a full time team, Stranraer aren't. Something that Montrose and Arbroath have in common are Junior sides like Roselea and Victoria for places younger local lads can develop.

While there's been the SPFL Reserve League 2 the last couple of years. They restricted dates to Mondays-Tuesdays. There was more flexibility on dates and at least enough some regionalisation in the Development League days. That meant they could slot in some Friday/Sunday games to save on the 4+ hour round trips during a work week.

With the Lowland League Development league having a number of West of Scotland clubs now and regionalisation with games on Fridays. Its possible Stranraer would be a team looking to enter at some point.

The North of Scotland u20s is lucky to play about a dozen league games spread across the full calendar. Its hard to develop if clubs barely play games. I also haven't heard if they were leaving the NoS u20s. They might well be pulling double duty in some cases for those players eligible.

EDIT: Just on the Rangers, Aberdeen, and Hibernian front. They're full time teams. And in certain cases have been organising year round friendlies against other youth teams from Scotland and abroad and sometimes first teams.

And I wouldn't say Montrose are managing fine. 5 years ago they were freaking out about the club dying by getting relegated to the Highland League as they could no longer afford their Central belt players to stay competitive. The same lines we've had about Brechin City before COVID shut the league down. At least in Stranraer's case they've cultivated a local group of lads that would help them remain competitive if they were to be relegated from the SPFL.

Edited by FairWeatherFan

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Haven't seen much in the way of SOS games, must sit fairly low in the pyramid. Can't imagine there's much ambition from all the clubs to progress upwards tbh. Enjoyed watching the Reserve, Development and Under 20's etc, guess for most clubs a good 20 year old should be ready for the 1st team rather than possible reserve football - maybe why some clubs don't have a reserve side as such.

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3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

QoS are a full time team, Stranraer aren't. Something that Montrose and Arbroath have in common are Junior sides like Roselea and Victoria for places younger local lads can develop.

While there's been the SPFL Reserve League 2 the last couple of years. They restricted dates to Mondays-Tuesdays. There was more flexibility on dates and at least enough some regionalisation in the Development League days. That meant they could slot in some Friday/Sunday games to save on the 4+ hour round trips during a work week.

With the Lowland League Development league having a number of West of Scotland clubs now and regionalisation with games on Fridays. Its possible Stranraer would be a team looking to enter at some point.

The North of Scotland u20s is lucky to play about a dozen league games spread across the full calendar. Its hard to develop if clubs barely play games. I also haven't heard if they were leaving the NoS u20s. They might well be pulling double duty in some cases for those players eligible.

EDIT: Just on the Rangers, Aberdeen, and Hibernian front. They're full time teams. And in certain cases have been organising year round friendlies against other youth teams from Scotland and abroad and sometimes first teams.

And I wouldn't say Montrose are managing fine. 5 years ago they were freaking out about the club dying by getting relegated to the Highland League as they could no longer afford their Central belt players to stay competitive. The same lines we've had about Brechin City before COVID shut the league down. At least in Stranraer's case they've cultivated a local group of lads that would help them remain competitive if they were to be relegated from the SPFL.

Colt teams will be in the WoSFL within the next few years.

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Just now, Tutankhamen said:

Colt teams will be in the WoSFL within the next few years.

I don't see it happening at WoSFL level. The background the members have would be too against it. If it was just a simple majority you'd need 34 members to say yes. Plus look at how the Lowland Development League took off in interest. Colt teams would come from above with the SPFL influencing things.

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Scrolling through Facebook I noticed a comment from a prospective applicant on a WoSFL FB post. Just a personal profile with no obvious link to a club so i've not included it. However, the response was to link to https://wosfl.co.uk/join-the-wosfl/

As things look to normalise heading into 2021-22 it looks like there could be some additions to the original 67.

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