Scottish Infrastructure

[welshbairn]

43 minutes ago, TxRover said:

In the end the biggest handicap to effective public transit is distance. The majority of the United States was developed post-transit, for instance:

The Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex had, from 1902 until the 1930’s, an extremely effective and extensive inter urban train/tram system. Unfortunately, this system was effectively destroyed by an antitrust action brought by the U.S. Government, reputedly at the behest of bus companies. For a short one, some bus service replaced this rail network, but the private automobile became the defacto transport option.

Similar things happened across the U.S., with only the names and parties varying. There are interesting studies that show how cities developed based upon the speed people could travel, and cars made the suburbs (and later exurbs) possible.

In the U.S., zoning laws often handicap local businesses, for instance I struggle to think of one bar within reasonable walking distance of any subdivisions around here, and grocery stores near homes are equally like hens teeth. This place is simply too spread out for mass transit because of the lack of a sufficient mass of riders in most areas. Even the large, warehouse style employers north of here that run shuttles, do so from the Fort Worth Bus Transfer station rather than picking up from several locations. The whole area was built around roads and cars, excepting a few recent, and high priced, townhome (semi-detached or row home) developments on the perimeter of upscale shopping areas.

I read an interesting article not long ago that I can't find right now showing pretty clearly that racism played a part too, especially in urban areas. City fathers didn't want easy access from black districts to white ones, and not to jobs that whites might be competing for either. Think it was about Chicago.

Edited August 19, 2021 by welshbairn

[TxRover]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I read an interesting article not long ago that I can't find right now showing pretty clearly that racism played a part too, especially in urban areas. City fathers didn't want easy access from black districts to white ones, and not to jobs that whites might be competing for either. Think it was about Chicago.

Here’s one, cities are 70 minutes wide:

https://www.swecourbaninsight.com/urban-move/travel-time/

And another showing 30 minute commutes as the key:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commuting-principle-that-shaped-urban-history
 

As for racism, yep.

Edited August 20, 2021 by TxRover

[GordonS]

10 hours ago, scottsdad said:

For someone like me who doesn't live in Edinburgh, the idea of going for a shopping trip with the wife there is just  hassle. Do we take the train, or park and ride?  Parking is enormously expensive and the city is increasingly pedestrianised. I can be in Glasgow in about the same amount of time, and park in Buchanan Galleries. Much easier, cheaper and more comfortable to get there. 

I don't see how the train to Waverley is a hassle. There are four trains an hour from Falkirk High and another two an hour from Grahamston. It's all electrified, the trains are new and it's much faster than driving. If you prefer to park and ride, it's free and the tram from Ingliston is quick, comfortable, regular and cheap.

I find driving into Edinburgh much more of a hassle, and coming out during rush hour has been a nightmare for decades.

As for Glasgow, I think general public parking (except for blue badges) should be banned inside a square bounded by the M8, the Clyde and the High Street. It should have happened years ago. The public transport into that area is excellent and it's all walkable. It's a 19 minute journey from Falkirk High. Buchanan Galleries is right beside Queen St Station, Buchanan St underground, Buchanan St bus station and about a million bus stops.

Cars are comfy and convenient but surely by now we all get that, when we have alternatives, we need to leave them at home.

7 hours ago, TxRover said:

I must say it’s worth a right chuckle to see the whining about the buses and rail. I’m sitting here not 5 miles from the largest city in the United States without mass transit (population circa 400k), which is located in the middle of an urban area of roughly 7.6M people, and where it’s practically impossible to live without a car.

It's unfair to compare the developed world with the developing world imo.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

I don't see how the train to Waverley is a hassle. There are four trains an hour from Falkirk High and another two an hour from Grahamston. It's all electrified, the trains are new and it's much faster than driving. If you prefer to park and ride, it's free and the tram from Ingliston is quick, comfortable, regular and cheap.

I find driving into Edinburgh much more of a hassle, and coming out during rush hour has been a nightmare for decades.

As for Glasgow, I think general public parking (except for blue badges) should be banned inside a square bounded by the M8, the Clyde and the High Street. It should have happened years ago. The public transport into that area is excellent and it's all walkable. It's a 19 minute journey from Falkirk High. Buchanan Galleries is right beside Queen St Station, Buchanan St underground, Buchanan St bus station and about a million bus stops.

Cars are comfy and convenient but surely by now we all get that, when we have alternatives, we need to leave them at home.

It's unfair to compare the developed world with the developing world imo.

It’s Texas, the Third World, at best.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Texans think public transport is a commie plot.

Having ridden the bus once in Glasgow and seen the proletariat, I’d agree.

[Cosmic Joe]

14 hours ago, scottsdad said:

For someone like me who doesn't live in Edinburgh, the idea of going for a shopping trip with the wife there is just  hassle. Do we take the train, or park and ride?  Parking is enormously expensive and the city is increasingly pedestrianised. I can be in Glasgow in about the same amount of time, and park in Buchanan Galleries. Much easier, cheaper and more comfortable to get there. 

Either the bus or the train takes you directly into the centre of both cities. 

[scottsdad]

5 hours ago, GordonS said:

I don't see how the train to Waverley is a hassle. There are four trains an hour from Falkirk High and another two an hour from Grahamston. It's all electrified, the trains are new and it's much faster than driving. If you prefer to park and ride, it's free and the tram from Ingliston is quick, comfortable, regular and cheap.

I find driving into Edinburgh much more of a hassle, and coming out during rush hour has been a nightmare for decades.

As for Glasgow, I think general public parking (except for blue badges) should be banned inside a square bounded by the M8, the Clyde and the High Street. It should have happened years ago. The public transport into that area is excellent and it's all walkable. It's a 19 minute journey from Falkirk High. Buchanan Galleries is right beside Queen St Station, Buchanan St underground, Buchanan St bus station and about a million bus stops.

Cars are comfy and convenient but surely by now we all get that, when we have alternatives, we need to leave them at home.

It's unfair to compare the developed world with the developing world imo.

Cost is the most important issue. Me, the wife and kids all in a train would cost a fortune for return tickets. At least £40. We can do Glasgow for less than a tenner in petrol, plus a few quid for parking. 

[doulikefish]

3 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Texans think public transport is a commie plot.

Having ridden the bus once in Glasgow and seen the proletariat, I’d agree.

I took the Greyhound bus from Austin to San Antonio as I fancied doing a a bit of touristy stuff and decided to spend a weekend there.When I told some work colleagues what I was doing they were in utter amazement that I had even considered using public transport and we're convinced that I would be raped kidnapped and murdered as only Mexican drug types used public transport.People were volunteering to drive me/lend me there cars they were genuinely concerned.Obviously none of them had ever used a bus but they all had heard stories.

The bus was great free hot drinks and pretty good wifi would recommend to anyone 

[101]

29 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Cost is the most important issue. Me, the wife and kids all in a train would cost a fortune for return tickets. At least £40. We can do Glasgow for less than a tenner in petrol, plus a few quid for parking. 

Shouldn't be as much as £40 kids are £1 but it is still more expensive and less convenient especially on a Sunday.

[scottsdad]

13 minutes ago, 101 said:

Shouldn't be as much as £40 kids are £1 but it is still more expensive and less convenient especially on a Sunday.

Last time I looked (not on a Sunday) Trainline said it was £42. That was before my son turned 16.

[scottsdad]

35 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

I took the Greyhound bus from Austin to San Antonio as I fancied doing a a bit of touristy stuff and decided to spend a weekend there.When I told some work colleagues what I was doing they were in utter amazement that I had even considered using public transport and we're convinced that I would be raped kidnapped and murdered as only Mexican drug types used public transport.People were volunteering to drive me/lend me there cars they were genuinely concerned.Obviously none of them had ever used a bus but they all had heard stories.

The bus was great free hot drinks and pretty good wifi would recommend to anyone 

Are your kidnappers making you say this? 

[ICTChris]

I went on a bus yesterday for the first time in more than 18 months. Two drug addicts got on and appeared to be sniffing something out of a hankie. Then an old disabled woman started shouting and swearing out the window at someone at one of the stops. I was in with my wee boy, he didn’t care, was too busy watching the cars and other buses.

 

[Karpaty Lviv]

1 hour ago, 101 said:

Shouldn't be as much as £40 kids are £1 but it is still more expensive and less convenient especially on a Sunday.

At the moment there are basically zero trains running on a Sunday due to strike action. Been going on for months I believe with no end in sight - absolute shambles. 

[101]

2 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Last time I looked (not on a Sunday) Trainline said it was £42. That was before my son turned 16.

No wonder Trainline are taking their cut from you, may as well buy on board U16's for a pound on board.

[alta-pete]

Anybody got an opinion as to Scotrail’s likely performance once properly under control of SG? 

Or any bright ideas for passing on to Graeme Dey?  (who? The Minister for Transport; and yes, I had to Google to find him)

[Dunning1874]

I see one of the proposals in the SNP-Green cooperation document is a feasibility study into extending the railway from Dyce to Ellon, and possibly further to Peterhead or Fraserburgh.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Dunning1874

[Big Fifer]

Anybody got an opinion as to Scotrail’s likely performance once properly under control of SG? 
Or any bright ideas for passing on to Graeme Dey?  (who? The Minister for Transport; and yes, I had to Google to find him)

I struggle to see how it'll be any different. Same staff, same management (though likely reshuffled), same unions. Unless Abellio have been taking massive profits that I'm not aware of that can be immediately thrown back into the company/infrastructure/staff I wouldn't hold my breath for much change.

[TxRover]

10 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Texans think public transport is a commie plot.

Having ridden the bus once in Glasgow and seen the proletariat, I’d agree.

Better than Atlanta where MARTA (Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) is referred to as Moving African-Americans Rapidly Through Atlanta, and Cobb County actually declined a rail link because they didn’t want “those people” to get easy access to Cobb County.

There are plenty of examples all over the US with similar japes directed at the names of transit systems as mass transit in the US is viewed as the province of the poor and/or violent.

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Cost is the most important issue. Me, the wife and kids all in a train would cost a fortune for return tickets. At least £40. We can do Glasgow for less than a tenner in petrol, plus a few quid for parking. 

Off peak adult return between Falkirk and Glasgow is £11.40, and for each adult up to four kids aged 5 to 15 can travel for £1 return each. So for a family of four it would be £24.80. Under 5s travel free.

I think it should be cheaper than that, and that petrol and parking should be dearer. Train fares have risen above inflation and a little above average wages over the past 10 years, but petrol hasn't increased in price at all. And I really, really don't intend to be cheeky when I say this so please don't take it that way, but I always wonder how people can have enough money to own and run a car, and to go shopping in Glasgow city centre on a Saturday, but not have the extra tenner for the train. It's a free country, I don't know your circumstances and I'm not making any judgements, I'm just talking generally.

If you drive to the park and ride at Croy the cost for a family of four is just £12.20. That's because the Glasgow-Edinburgh line through Falkirk High is the most expensive in Scotland, but trains inside the SPT area are much cheaper. If you live in or near the boundary that's worth thinking about. An adult return from Croy to Ayr is only £13.20. 

[GordonS]

6 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Better than Atlanta where MARTA (Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) is referred to as Moving African-Americans Rapidly Through Atlanta, and Cobb County actually declined a rail link because they didn’t want “those people” to get easy access to Cobb County.

There are plenty of examples all over the US with similar japes directed at the names of transit systems as mass transit in the US is viewed as the province of the poor and/or violent.

Do Americans ever change their minds after seeing public transport when they take holidays to Europe?