Scottish Infrastructure

[hk blues]

10 hours ago, MONKMAN said:

A Dumfries to Carlisle return ticket is about half the price of a single, I’ve never understood that one.

Why would anyone buy a single - assuming they know that?

[Hauzen]

Just now, hk blues said:

Why would anyone go to Carlisle?

 

[hk blues]

9 minutes ago, Hauzen said:

 

Have you been to Dumfries?

[LongTimeLurker]

12 hours ago, cdisaaccie said:

Unfortunately a more obvious - and preferable - direct route via Blantyre isn't possible.

Believe it or not a train using that route would be roughly comparable time wise to the buses between EK & Hamilton which all take at least 25-30 mins from EK bus station to Hamilton...

The two major problems with extending to Strathaven are that a very expensive viaduct between Stonehouse and Larkhall is no longer there and that a sizable portion of the old alignment has been used for a bypass road for Stonehouse. It was looked at closely when the Larkhall line was being done and afterwards but the cost was prohibitive for a town of Strathaven's size.

Think some of the Glasgow suburban services like the Cathcart Circle could be switched to light rail or tram-train type formats then the East Kilbride branch could be more easily extended out from the old village, which isn't the greatest location from an EK new town standpoint. There has been some talk of that happening but don't think it's ever moved beyond the aspirational proposal sort of stage. 

The problem with a lot of Scotland's existing rail network and the old alignments that were closed in the Beeching era is that they often tend to go where goods traffic (especially coal) was being routed 150 years ago rather than where passengers would actually most want to go in the here and now. The Edinburgh trams approach of replacing the most congested city bus routes with tram lines following new alignments will often be much more sensible than trying to use old or existing rail alignments like the South Suburban line or various old alignments into Leith that were mainly intended for freight with any passenger traffic viewed as an added bonus to what was really paying the bills.

Activists latch onto goods lines like Alloa to Rosyth and Edinburgh via Longannet and try to make it sound like it will work well for passengers in the present day without considering issues like either having to build a new chord that completely avoids Dunfermline where most of the potential passengers would be or the ongoing hassle that would be involved with having to do a double back in Dunfermline instead for each and every train using the route at a station that is already well serviced anyway. The old line from Alloa via Oakley would have made sense as new stations could have been opened to cater to the parts of Dunfermline that are most distant from the Fife Circle line but too much of it has been built on over the last 30 years, unfortunately.

[Detournement]

15 hours ago, cdisaaccie said:

Believe it or not a train using that route would be roughly comparable time wise to the buses between EK & Hamilton which all take at least 25-30 mins from EK bus station to Hamilton.

Given that it takes 10 minutes to go from Hamilton to Larkhall and it's all uphill to Strathaven it would definitely be over 30 minutes for that journey. 

[Ekhibee88]

12 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Given that it takes 10 minutes to go from Hamilton to Larkhall and it's all uphill to Strathaven it would definitely be over 30 minutes for that journey. 

 

If I was to have my way, Id run the line EK to Hamilton, connect at Blantyre onto existing, services to serve Hamilton and Motherwell. Even have a East Kilbride to Edinburgh service via Shotts.

[GNU_Linux]

Planning application for Reston station submitted

Reston is a wee village in Berwickshire but the East Coast Main Line passes through the village. Would also provide rail access for Eyemouth about five miles away.

Up the road in East Lothian planning permission is due to be submitted for East Linton in Q1 of this year.

[Highland Capital]

On 16/01/2021 at 00:27, DiegoDiego said:

Instead of connecting Fort William to Inverness via the A82, why not take the A86 route and just connect Tulloch with Newtonmore? Probably similar engineering difficulties along parts of the route and not as direct but about half the distance to build. 

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that there has been talk of it over the years (including bizarrely in one of the SSP's Scottish election manifestos).  The plan would involve a line from Kingussie/Newtonmore to Roybridge.  It would be good to have Inverness and Fort William properly linked, as well as having an alternate route to Glasgow and would also take some pressure (in both freight and passengers) off the A82 which is notoriously dangerous with really possibility of it being straightened/dueled. 

I imagine you could also run trains from Inverness to Oban which would probably be packed with tourists in the summer.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Highland Capital

[parsforlife]

9 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

.

Activists latch onto goods lines like Alloa to Rosyth and Edinburgh via Longannet and try to make it sound like it will work well for passengers in the present day without considering issues like either having to build a new chord that completely avoids Dunfermline where most of the potential passengers would be or the ongoing hassle that would be involved with having to do a double back in Dunfermline instead for each and every train using the route at a station that is already well serviced anyway. The old line from Alloa via Oakley would have made sense as new stations could have been opened to cater to the parts of Dunfermline that are most distant from the Fife Circle line but too much of it has been built on over the last 30 years, unfortunately.

Alloa to Dunfermline via Oakley is relatively easy,  the route is a cycle path these days and pretty easy to connect onto the existing network at the Alloa end.  Dunfermline more difficult but a Dunfermline west station could be constructed as part of the huge development plans happening at that end of the town.

Agree with the general thinking of your post tho.  

[Ekhibee88]

A good ticket hack for Glasgow to Edinburgh is buy it to or from Eskbank, gives you a period return. Think the peak times hing should be abolished for the evening.

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, Highland Capital said:

I imagine you could also run trains from Inverness to Oban which would probably be packed with tourists in the summer.

Unless you're resurrecting the (no doubt magnificent) Oban-Ballachulish line and connecting it to Fort William as well then no, it wouldn't. Nobody is going to Oban from Inverness via Crianlarich, when they could just take the connection from Glasgow instead. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by vikingTON

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Alloa to Dunfermline via Oakley is relatively easy,  the route is a cycle path these days and pretty easy to connect onto the existing network at the Alloa end.  Dunfermline more difficult but a Dunfermline west station could be constructed as part of the huge development plans happening at that end of the town.

Agree with the general thinking of your post tho.  

Most of that old line would be very easy as you describe but the biggest and in all likelihood most insurmountable problem is around where the old Dunfermline Upper station used to be:

 

There are other issues in Dunfermline related to new housing that would also escalate the price tag and create a lot of fierce local opposition.

Some local councils have protected old railway alignments in planning terms to help make future reinstements like Bathgate to Airdrie and Dalkeith to Gala financially viable. Fife didn't with this line and it's really unfortunate because it was still being used to move coal well into the 80s and probably would have been quickly reopened after the Alloa to Glasgow service did so well so we are looking at not much more than a 15 year window where a lack of foresight in planning terms damaged the future connectivity of the passenger rail network.

[ICTChris]

I never knew that Edinburgh almost had an underground built in the late 19th century.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/heritage-and-retro/retro/forgotten-plan-build-subway-system-under-central-edinburgh-3107348

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Most of that old line would be very easy as you describe but the biggest and in all likelihood most insurmountable problem is around where the old Dunfermline Upper station used to be:

 

There are other issues in Dunfermline related to new housing that would also escalate the price tag and create a lot of fierce local opposition.

Some local councils have protected old railway alignments in planning terms to help make future reinstements like Bathgate to Airdrie and Dalkeith to Gala financially viable. Fife didn't with this line and it's really unfortunate because it was still being used to move coal well into the 80s and probably would have been quickly reopened after the Alloa to Glasgow service did so well so we are looking at not much more than a 15 year window where a lack of foresight in planning terms damaged the future connectivity of the passenger rail network.

Hence the need for a Dunfermline west station at the end of what can be reused.  You can’t really connect the line onto the general network at Dunfermline as there’s about a mile of former track that was built over and pretty impossible to replace.

If you were to use the longannet line then from Alloa to Dunfermline then the services would be best heading north instead of doubling back at Dunfermline.  

Both plans are very unlikely tho.   Even something very simple like a station at Halbeath P&R is considered too much of an effort.

[Highland Capital]

It's very strange that Leith isn't really connected to the rail network at all.  Surely if it was it'd be well used.  You could imagine that the outbound trains could've even have started in Leith before hooking round to Waverley.  

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Hence the need for a Dunfermline west station at the end of what can be reused.  You can’t really connect the line onto the general network at Dunfermline as there’s about a mile of former track that was built over and pretty impossible to replace...

Problems are that the old alignment has also been built over with some housing before you even get close enough into the town centre for a well used west station and a lot of people (for the sake of argument lets call them the Green Party) are going to argue that the Longannet line makes more sense for implementing Alloa/Stirling traffic from the existing main town station because Edinburgh can also be involved that way albeit with a double back. Edinburgh is where people from the Alloa area are more likely to want to go, with no offence intended to the west end of Dunfermline. 

The main problem with anything ever happening on Dunfermline to Alloa and the reason that the Green Party are not being listended to is that the Longannet line and any double back are so cumbersome that you might as well just service Alloa via Stirling to Waverley. It was always mainly meant as a slow goods line while the line via Oakley was the double track main line designed with rapid passenger services in mind. The 500 lb gorilla in the room is also that  Fife Circle-> Dalmeny -> Falkirk -> Queen Street is the more direct way to do any Glasgow train service (think there actually is one direct train per day from Kirkcaldy). Any route via Stirling is going to struggle to compete with express buses running over the Kincardine bridge for convenience.

2 hours ago, Highland Capital said:

It's very strange that Leith isn't really connected to the rail network at all.  Surely if it was it'd be well used.  You could imagine that the outbound trains could've even have started in Leith before hooking round to Waverley.  

There was a Leith Central station (where the trainspotting one liner from Begbie's father happens) that could definitely have been used that way if more services from Glasgow and the west ran through rather than terminating at Waverley. It got closed because buses worked much better for most local traffic and there maybe wasn't as much scope for long distance travel from there as there would be now.

[tamthebam]

12 hours ago, Highland Capital said:

It's very strange that Leith isn't really connected to the rail network at all.  Surely if it was it'd be well used.  You could imagine that the outbound trains could've even have started in Leith before hooking round to Waverley.  

We used to have a fairly extensive suburban rail network in Edinburgh, not quite as big as Glasgow's but big enough. For example there was a station near where Ainslie Park is now.

Beeching did for most of it. Glasgow kept things like the Cathcart line because it voted Labour while we were stupid enough to vote Tory (serves us right I know). 

Most of Edinburgh's old lines are now cycle tracks. The South sub survives as a goods line and is sometimes pressed into service when there's rail works between Haymarket and Waverley.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

We used to have a fairly extensive suburban rail network in Edinburgh, not quite as big as Glasgow's but big enough. For example there was a station near where Ainslie Park is now.

Beeching did for most of it. Glasgow kept things like the Cathcart line because it voted Labour while we were stupid enough to vote Tory (serves us right I know). 

The Beeching Report and the peak rate of line closures took place under the Tory McMillan government, though you deserve to have your entire rail infrastructure ripped up for being both Tories and consequently No-voting 'capital city' shitebags. 

[tamthebam]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

The Beeching Report and the peak rate of line closures took place under the Tory McMillan government, though you deserve to have your entire rail infrastructure ripped up for being both Tories and consequently No-voting 'capital city' shitebags. 

I might start the campaign to have the capital of Scotland moved to Greenock. Greenock town hall looks more like a parliament that the concrete bunker next to Lizzie's hoose.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, tamthebam said:

I might start the campaign to have the capital of Scotland moved to Greenock. Greenock town hall looks more like a parliament that the concrete bunker next to Lizzie's hoose.

Well I can only say that it's about time that others embraced this natural role for the export capital of Scotland. Not least given the chaos of the Brexit Britain-EU trade borders at the moment. The third Greenock railway line running straight through to the Princes' Pier/Ocean Terminal dicks can be easily restored to carry all freight traffic to/from the new Scottish capital. 

Fun fact: Greenock councillors commissioned the same architect for its town hall as the one who built Glasgow's City Chambers - for the sole purpose of ensuring that the town hall's Victoria Tower would be one metre taller than Glasgow's effort. 

The pettiest and most aesthetically glorious, GIRUY middle finger gesture in the history of Scotland.