Scottish Infrastructure

[10menwent2mow]

Buses are much slower, less reliable and less popular than trains, which is a large part of why bus use in Scotland and across the UK has been in major decline for decades while train use has been rising for 15-20 years. Three-quarters of public transport journeys are by bus but it's less and less popular, especially for commuters. Buses don't have the same capacity to get people out of their cars - ironic as the biggest problem buses face is being stuck in traffic.
Public investment is required in both, obviously.

For commuters yes but intercity train travel has become extortionate compared with the bus. A quick look shows that a typical megabus from Aberdeen to Glasgow tomorrow would cost less than £20 and take roughly the same time as the train which would cost £45.

[Ekhibee88]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

Buses are much slower, less reliable and less popular than trains, which is a large part of why bus use in Scotland and across the UK has been in major decline for decades while train use has been rising for 15-20 years. Three-quarters of public transport journeys are by bus but it's less and less popular, especially for commuters. Buses don't have the same capacity to get people out of their cars - ironic as the biggest problem buses face is being stuck in traffic.

Public investment is required in both, obviously.

In Glasgow noticed less people using the bus even from ten years ago. Demographic thing too. Edinburgh still has best buses in the country and notice pretty much all demographics using them. 

[GordonS]

48 minutes ago, Ekhibee88 said:

In Glasgow noticed less people using the bus even from ten years ago. Demographic thing too. Edinburgh still has best buses in the country and notice pretty much all demographics using them. 

Lothian Buses are great, often ranked as one of the best in the UK. Cheap, reliable, regular, modern fleet and good routes. They got enough support from the council to fight off the Stagecoach and Firstbus mobs. While bus passenger numbers in Scotland have fallen 10% in 5 years, Lothian's numbers are up. 

[cdhafc1874]

The next big train infrastructure likely to get done will be Levenmouth.

After that the extension of the Borders railway back to Carlisle via Hawick with most of the original Waverley route - bar the section at Melrose Station but there's still enough room for single track - still clear to rebuild it in full.

Then looking at stuff like extending the Larkhall line back to Strathaven - with surely looking into a possibility of linking that up with a new extension to a Park & Ride station on the east side of EK (maybe sticking a station in at Chapelton too) which could finally provide a direct train link between EK & Hamilton.

Seeing as the original rail link that went from the current EK station in the Village to Hamilton via High Blantyre is completely built over both in EK & High Blantyre so isn't an option.
It was closed way back when EK was still a small village, hindsight & all that eh...

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, 10menwent2mow said:

10 hours ago, GordonS said:

Buses are much slower, less reliable and less popular than trains, which is a large part of why bus use in Scotland and across the UK has been in major decline for decades while train use has been rising for 15-20 years. Three-quarters of public transport journeys are by bus but it's less and less popular, especially for commuters. Buses don't have the same capacity to get people out of their cars - ironic as the biggest problem buses face is being stuck in traffic.
Public investment is required in both, obviously.

For commuters yes but intercity train travel has become extortionate compared with the bus. A quick look shows that a typical megabus from Aberdeen to Glasgow tomorrow would cost less than £20 and take roughly the same time as the train which would cost £45.

Aye, I would call that a coach rather than a bus but it's lumped in the same category for stats. Shame, it would be interesting to see how passenger numbers have fared in recent years.

I never took a train outside Glasgow until I was 22, they were for rich people. Prices in the UK are bloody ridiculous, you can do a journey like Amsterdam to Copenhagen for 80 Euros return at a couple of weeks notice. On the same dates, if I wanted to visit my pal in Yeovil the cheapest return is £193.40. 

[Archie McSquackle]

I worked in a shop in EK when I lived in Hamilton many years ago and a girl who also worked there and lived in EK asked me where Hamilton was. If only there was still a train line and she had some common sense she might have known it was the next town a few miles away.

[Glen Sannox]

1 hour ago, cdisaaccie said:

The next big train infrastructure likely to get done will be Levenmouth.

After that the extension of the Borders railway back to Carlisle via Hawick with most of the original Waverley route - bar the section at Melrose Station but there's still enough room for single track - still clear to rebuild it in full.

Then looking at stuff like extending the Larkhall line back to Strathaven - with surely looking into a possibility of linking that up with a new extension to a Park & Ride station on the east side of EK (maybe sticking a station in at Chapelton too) which could finally provide a direct train link between EK & Hamilton.

Seeing as the original rail link that went from the current EK station in the Village to Hamilton via High Blantyre is completely built over both in EK & High Blantyre so isn't an option.
It was closed way back when EK was still a small village, hindsight & all that eh...


 

Levenmouth is happening. There’s not been a failure re opening closed railways. Bathgate, Larkhall, Alloa, Paisley Canal, Borders etc. Everyone has been a success story. Long may it continue.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, cdisaaccie said:

The next big train infrastructure likely to get done will be Levenmouth.

After that the extension of the Borders railway back to Carlisle via Hawick with most of the original Waverley route - bar the section at Melrose Station but there's still enough room for single track - still clear to rebuild it in full.

Then looking at stuff like extending the Larkhall line back to Strathaven - with surely looking into a possibility of linking that up with a new extension to a Park & Ride station on the east side of EK (maybe sticking a station in at Chapelton too) which could finally provide a direct train link between EK & Hamilton.

Seeing as the original rail link that went from the current EK station in the Village to Hamilton via High Blantyre is completely built over both in EK & High Blantyre so isn't an option.
It was closed way back when EK was still a small village, hindsight & all that eh...


 

Yes to Levenmouth and Borders.

Strathaven would be very expensive for not many people. Between them Stonehouse and Strathaven has about 13,000 people but the line beyond Larkhall is long gone, it would need to be built from scratch.

I think the next most likely options are a line to Fraserburgh & Peterhead, re-opening Alloa to Rosyth and maybe new stations around Inverness and Aberdeen. We're generally pretty lucky in Scotland, we've seen a lot more growth in the railways than anywhere in the UK outside London.

[GordonS]

6 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Is ScotRail still run by the Dutch state railway? Our high prices subsidise their rail fares. I think they said when they were told they were losing the franchise that they'd jack up prices to make as much hay as they could while the sun was shining. Characteristically to the point.

I don't know if we're subsidising the Dutch - it's not like Abellio are making a profit from the fares, they got £390 million from the Scottish Government in 2018-19. Prices are controlled by the Scottish Government too so they couldn't threaten that. They might still be making a big profit, I dunno and I can't be arsed checking their accounts.

[strichener]

23 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I don't know if we're subsidising the Dutch - it's not like Abellio are making a profit from the fares, they got £390 million from the Scottish Government in 2018-19. Prices are controlled by the Scottish Government too so they couldn't threaten that. They might still be making a big profit, I dunno and I can't be arsed checking their accounts.

They were losing money.  They got £428m in subsidy and took £445m in fares.  If only the Scottish government would subsidise busses to the same level.

Edited January 20, 2021 by strichener

[DiegoDiego]

I never took a train outside Glasgow until I was 22, they were for rich people. Prices in the UK are bloody ridiculous, you can do a journey like Amsterdam to Copenhagen for 80 Euros return at a couple of weeks notice. On the same dates, if I wanted to visit my pal in Yeovil the cheapest return is £193.40. 

Denmark isn't much better to be honest. Prices within Sjaelland are equivalent of those within the central belt. The difference is that in Denmark there's no real bus network, so it's train or nothing. No cheaper option. The trains are covered with graffiti, too.

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

A possibility for future expansion may be extending the Borders railway by 7-miles along the old Dalkeith to Penicuik spur.

Would serve Bonnyrigg (pop 15k), Rosewell (pop 2k), Auchendinny & Penicuik (pop 16k). Also bringing Bilston, Roslin and Loanhead closer to a railway station. A fairly big catchment area all within 10 miles of Edinburgh, and not currently served by train.

The old route is largely undisturbed, apart from a few houses in Bonnyrigg (just downhill from the football ground). The route still has two long tunnels and a viaduct in good condition.

Would be a damn shame for me if they did, as I love walking along that path. Superb views over towards the Pentlands.

(Ulterior motive: once they get that Penicuik line reopened they can rebuild the spur from that line to Peebles, and they can then rebuild the Howgate spur from that line to West Linton. Which they could join up with Lanark like in the olden days giving West Linton direct railway access to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Which will suit a catchment area of, erm, me!)

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

They were losing money.  They got £428m in subsidy and took £445m in fares.  If only the Scottish government would subsidise busses to the same level.

We support buses with over £200 million per year, though much of that is for infrastructure rather than fare support. 

1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:

Denmark isn't much better to be honest. Prices within Sjaelland are equivalent of those within the central belt. The difference is that in Denmark there's no real bus network, so it's train or nothing. No cheaper option. The trains are covered with graffiti, too.

Ah, ta. I've been checking prices for trains between Copenhagen and Amsterdam, Berlin and Stockholm, and they're incredibly good. Presumably it's local trains that charge much the same as us?

56 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I noticed that when I was there. For a country that ranks so consistently on happiness indices it looks awfy scruffy.

I don't think most Europeans regard graffiti as being as unsightly as we do. And I'd take graffiti over litter any day. 

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, Le Tout P'ti FC said:

A possibility for future expansion may be extending the Borders railway by 7-miles along the old Dalkeith to Penicuik spur.

Would serve Bonnyrigg (pop 15k), Rosewell (pop 2k), Auchendinny & Penicuik (pop 16k). Also bringing Bilston, Roslin and Loanhead closer to a railway station. A fairly big catchment area all within 10 miles of Edinburgh, and not currently served by train...

The problem is that the station location for Penicuik on that old alignment would be less than ideal and unlikely to attract passengers from most of the town. It was more the old Bilston Glen colliery line via Loanhead that was being proposed for a Dalkeith rail link but it's usually a tram line via Straiton that gets discussed now as it is easier to get light rail into where the would be passengers are.

Extending the old Waverley line all the way to Carlisle gets talked about a lot but makes very little sense in big picture terms as it was only there as a main line because of competition between private rail companies in the Victorian era. There is no obvious need to duplicate the route via Carstairs in main line terms and there is unlikely to be any significant local traffic beyond Hawick. Gala to Hawick might work well but the price tag puts it a long way down any list of priorities. If it was going to happen, the time to do it was when the Borders railway was being reopened but it was difficult enough politically to persuade people that it should go beyond Gorebridge in Midlothian at the time.

[Mark Connolly]

On 19/01/2021 at 19:39, Hampden Diehard said:

Plus the rail links are pish or non-existent. EK  and Cumbernauld stations are not central, Livingston's stations aren't in the town and Glenrothes doesn't have a station either. Mind you, we haven't got round to putting rails to the main airports yet either. Greenock has something like 7 stations; move a few of them.

East Kilbride is lucky it has a station at all, the place should be cut off for the benefit of the rest of society.

[Hedgecutter]

12 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

The trains are covered with graffiti, too.

... yet you never see a half finished piece with a long line at the end from where the train pulled away from the platform.  The Danish; a great bunch of lads.

[DiegoDiego]

11 hours ago, GordonS said:

Ah, ta. I've been checking prices for trains between Copenhagen and Amsterdam, Berlin and Stockholm, and they're incredibly good. Presumably it's local trains that charge much the same as us?

Aye. I reckon those intercapital headline prices are subsidised by some pan-European train cabal fighting against low-cost airlines. From my experience living in places like Finland, Denmark and Italy your Arbroath-Stonehaven equivalent fare wasn't too different to the UK (though in Finland it was about twice the cost). No trains at all when I lived in Albania or Guatemala though so perhaps we should count ourselves lucky.

[invergowrie arab]

My experience of Germany and Benelux countries was train prices are consistent anyway.

Brussels to Ghent return would probably be the same to the average price of Dundee to Glasgow but you wouldnt be stung 55 quid if you needed to go last minute on a Monday morning. 

[Ekhibee88]

12 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I noticed that when I was there. For a country that ranks so consistently on happiness indices it looks awfy scruffy.

Most European countries do have graffiti  on trains.

[Ekhibee88]

11 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

My experience of Germany and Benelux countries was train prices are consistent anyway.

Brussels to Ghent return would probably be the same to the average price of Dundee to Glasgow but you wouldnt be stung 55 quid if you needed to go last minute on a Monday morning. 

Aye thats the problem. Only really cheap if you book like 12 weeks in advance and on specific trains. When buying a ticket Glasgow to Dundee its best to split your ticket at Perth.

In the Netherlands the train tickets are same right up to departure and no silly seat reservations.